The Gatekeepers of Justice, with Karen Iles

A conversation with award-winning lawyer Karen Iles about credibility and institutional power inside the criminal justice system, and the difficult questions surrounding who gets believed, supported and pursued through the law.

Check out Violet Co. Legal & Consulting and follow Karen's progress with the Make Police Investigate campaign. Read her story here. 

Learn more about the justice system and Sarah's advocacy at www.withyouwecan.org, and follow us on Instagram @withyouwecan_ and LinkedIn. 

Transcript

Sarah: This podcast discusses sexual violence and other material listeners may find distressing. Please look after yourself as you listen, and feel free to switch off at any point. You can visit withyouwecan.org to find help, but remember to call triple zero in emergencies. We're recording on the lands of the Gadigal, where sovereignty was never ceded. We recognize that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples continue to experience the ongoing impacts of colonization, including disproportionate rates of sexual violence and institutional harm. We pay our respects to elders past and present, and commit to advocacy that does not replicate the harms it seeks to address. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. 

Victim-survivors live in a constant state of the unknown. I know that because I've lived it. Shrouded in secrecy, silenced by process, we're asked to place our faith in a justice system that was never designed for us at the most vulnerable moment of our lives, but I won't stand for it. We're cracking this system wide open so you and everyone around you understands what it actually means to navigate the legal system after sexual violence. I'm Sarah Rosenberg, executive director of With You We Can, and this is What No One Told Us. 

Sarah: Karen Iles is the director and principal solicitor at Violet Co. Legal and Consulting. Her practice focuses on workplace law, discrimination, and corporate governance. But she's increasingly recognized for her expertise in representing victim-survivors of sexual assault, and her law reform advocacy in this area. Karen is an adjunct professor of practice at the University of Newcastle's School of Law and Justice.

Sarah: She was a finalist in the New South Wales Women of the Year Award for last year, winner of Private Practitioner of the Year, Women Lawyers Association 2023, a finalist for Woman Lawyer of the Year 2023, and winner of the Pro Bono Service Award, Law Society of New South Wales 2022. Karen also holds many board appointments.

Sarah: Our Watch, the National Justice Project, First Australians [00:02:00] Capital. She chairs the Safety and Wellbeing Committee at ANU, and is an advisory board member at Sydney Women's Fund. Karen is a Darug Aboriginal woman, and speaks publicly about her own personal experience of attempting to access justice in relation to sexual assaults.

Sarah: Her legal representation and advocacy for Aboriginal women and children who are victims of violence and homicide has recently been spotlighted in The Guardian Australia's award-winning Broken Trust series. Karen, you've been on both sides of this system as a victim-survivor and as a lawyer working within it.

Sarah: It has been the biggest privilege working alongside you and learning from you. Despite your background in employment law, you've stepped into the sexual assault space simply due to the need I do wanna start, though, with your lived experience, 'cause I think it speaks so clearly to a lot of what we'll be unpacking.

Karen Iles: Sure. [00:03:00] 

Sarah: You had just turned 14- 

Karen Iles: Mm ... 

Sarah: when you were on holiday at the Gold Coast, Coolangatta. 

Karen Iles: Yeah. 

Sarah: So stuck between two jurisdictions there. 

Karen Iles: Yeah, it's right on the border. So it's Coolangatta and Tweed Heads. Mm. There's literally, we were staying on the main road, um, that was the border. Oh, wow. So these assaults happened- Beat 

Sarah: the odds, yep

Karen Iles: on both sides of the border. 

Sarah: So you, you had just turned 14 when you were gang raped- 

Karen Iles: Mm-hmm ... 

Sarah: by around 15 adult men. 

Karen Iles: Yeah. 

Sarah: Legal sources have said that it's one of the most serious allegations that have been, that, that have been made across the entire country. 

Karen Iles: Mm-hmm. 

Sarah: But police in Queensland have failed to do any meaningful investigation.

Sarah: They haven't interviewed you, your co-victim. W- w- what happened? What happened when you- 

Karen Iles: Mm ... 

Sarah: when you reported? 

Karen Iles: Mm. [00:04:00] 

Sarah: 23 years later- 

Karen Iles: Mm-hmm ... 

Sarah: when you reported, which is ahead of the curve, as we've- Mm-hmm ... spoken about for most- Mm-hmm ... victims of child sexual assault. 

Karen Iles: Mm. 

Sarah: And it's now been over 20 years. 

Karen Iles: Yeah, since I reported, yeah.

Sarah: What happened? 

Karen Iles: I think that's a really great question for Queensland Police. Um, and also New South Wales Police, um, the, the, um, there was more than a 20-year delay in them lifting a finger either. Um, and like I said, the, there were a series of, um, of aggravated child sexual assaults. Um, and aggravated in legal speak is- It's its own class

Karen Iles: where there's... It is. It's its own class of crime. Um, and it means when there's more than, um, more than two perpetrators- Mm ... or two or more. Um, and also when, um, someone, for example, um, like what happened to me, was, um, [00:05:00] locked in a room, so deprived of liberty. Um, or there was a weapon, um, which was also an aggravating factor in one of, um, the instances for me.

Karen Iles: And, um, and, yeah, so in... I, I think it's a very good question- Mm ... for Queensland Police, um, and New South Wales Police to, to have to come to grips with, and they, they seem to skirt the issue. And I think that my, my situation is not uncommon. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And that's exactly why I chose to speak out, because- As I c- you know, in my 40s was speaking out more publicly about what had happened to me as a 14-year-old.

Karen Iles: So many other women and some men, um, confided in me similar stories and similar experiences of going to police, and then it just going into this mysterious [00:06:00] hole. 

Sarah: Into the abyss. 

Karen Iles: Into the abyss. And, and so I felt compelled as a lawyer, um, that I have, I have duties under the Legal Profession Act, um, to uphold justice and to call out injustice where I see it happening, and to assist the court.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And to assist in the administration of justice. That's my duty as a lawyer. Mm. So I feel that deeply as a victim survivor, I have a duty to other victim survivors. As a woman, as an Aboriginal woman, I have a duty to others, and a responsibility and an obligation, but also as a lawyer- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: I have a responsibility, um, and an obligation to, um, to really support improvements to the system.

Karen Iles: And, um, for me, so, you know, these assaults happened when I was 14, and I reported, um, to police in [00:07:00] person when I was 23 years of age, and that's really ahead of the curve for child victims. Child victims typically report in their 40s. Um, and so for me, um, having then had this lapse in time from reporting when I was 23 until my early 40s when I really started to lose my patience with the constant excuses and, and the constant, "Oh, someone will call you back.

Karen Iles: Sorry, the right person isn't here for you to speak to. We'll take a message," I finally kind of, um, lost my patience and, um, started speaking out publicly, um, about how ridiculous this whole system is. 

Sarah: Did anyone Ever explicitly say, "We're not investigating," or did, did it just quietly fall into that hole? 

Karen Iles: No.

Karen Iles: Um, it, it was just a constant, [00:08:00] um, flow of, "Oh, someone will call you back. The right p- person isn't here for you to speak to." There was, there was no, um... And in fact, the investigation is still open- Mm ... in both jurisdictions. And so it makes it very difficult- ... um, to actually speak openly and publicly, um, about the circumstances because technically, um, despite there being a more than 20-year lag in any meaningful anything, um, from police, um, that it makes it very difficult to speak about.

Karen Iles: Um- You're gagged. E- essentially, that's right. Mm. Um, but I think that it's in the interests of justice that, um, victims do speak out about these things, and that it is in the interest of justice that I call out, um, this unacceptable delay in our legal processes. 

Sarah: Mm. Absolutely. Absolutely 

Karen Iles: And I, I think as well, it's, you know, the reforms that you and I have [00:09:00] worked on together, um, which has been a delight, um, through the Australian Law Reform Commission of, you know, that the- this is unacceptable.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And what these types of unexplained, uh, voids- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: unexplained silences can cause real harm to victims. It means that... And I'm not a psychologist, I'm a lawyer, um, but it means that victims can internalize and blame themselves- Mm ... and think, "Well, why aren't I good enough? Why don't I deserve for police to do something?

Karen Iles: Why don't I deserve what we see on Law & Order: SVU?" 

Sarah: Yeah. "

Karen Iles: Why don't I deserve that? Is there something wrong with me? It- do they not believe me? Is there some... You know, what have I done to make them not do anything?" And victims can internalize this. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: And it creates inc- it can create, I believe, from speaking to- 

Sarah: Mm.

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: psychologists, um, and [00:10:00] psychiatrists, not for my own treatment, but just academically, um, it can create significant, um, mental harm. 

Sarah: Yeah, incredible harm. And, and I mean, har- harming victims i- is, is one thing that is not okay, and the other is that, I mean, the system's just not operating the way the community expects it to.

Karen Iles: No. 

Sarah: I mean, we're told the problem is under-reporting. What's the real problem? 

Karen Iles: The real report problem is police inaction. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Um, and so what we see is of the 13%, or sorry, no, 9% now- ... um, of victim survivors that choose to report their sexual assaults to police- Of those 9%, what we see in some jurisdictions, and we see from the fabulous research that's been done in the ACT by Rachel Bergen and her team- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm

Karen Iles: um, is that the vast [00:11:00] majority of cases, and in, in her report, by memory, it was 98%- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: of cases in the ACT over an 18-month period, where victim survivors had reported sexual assault to police, the police did nothing. 

Sarah: Nothing. 

Karen Iles: In 98%. So, what does that do in our community? It means that as, as women, as men, as gender diverse people, we all talk to each other.

Karen Iles: You know? And we all have these collective stories. I mean, I've heard from women in their 90s saying, "I reported- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: in, you know, in the 60s," or, "I reported something," um, you know. Y- you speak to young women in their 20s, "I reported to police." You speak to women, um, and men, um, across all spectrums, and, um, the story is very similar- 

Sarah: Mm

Karen Iles: is that nothing happened. 

Sarah: It's like victims aren't withdrawing willingly, they're being ousted. [00:12:00] 

Karen Iles: That's right. And what the ACT study, and the reason we focus on the ACT is because no other state or territory has done the research. Yeah. Um, and I think what we would find is that, you know, it, it would be the same.

Sarah: It would be similar. Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: Um, but what they found is where police had recorded that a victim had withdrawn- was that the victim didn't even realize that it had been recorded that way. Yeah. So that was a surprise to them. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: Um, but also many victims reported that they just withdrew because they were fed up after years of waiting.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And they just said, "You know what? Don't bother. It's quite clear to me that you're not gonna do anything to help me." Um, and it's, it's not just about helping the victims, it's about holding these men accountable. Exactly right. And I say men because- 

Sarah: It's mostly ... 

Karen Iles: you know, we know that 90, 95% or, or more of, of perpetrators are men.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Um, but um, yeah, it, it's just so out of step with what our [00:13:00] community expects. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And it's 

Sarah: just so- Doesn't pass the pub test. It- That's what you've always said ... 

Karen Iles: it doesn't, and it's just so unfathomable, and the political inaction is just really concerning. 

Sarah: I, I think if you ask, you know, any general member of the public what the one job of a police officer is, it's to investigate crime.

Karen Iles: Yeah, totally. 

Sarah: But your, your- ... campaign, Make Police Investigate, highlights something- Well, we 

Karen Iles: were originally gonna call that campaign Police Do Your Job. 

Sarah: Do Your Job. 

Karen Iles: Sorry, it wasn't Police Do Your Job. Cops Do Your Job. And we thought, "Oh, that's a bit confrontational," but- 

Sarah: Cop, coppers ... 

Karen Iles: um, but- But you- But essentially, you know, like, that is the expectation- 

Sarah: Yeah

Karen Iles: that, that our society has, that if you go and report a serious crime... Like, okay, if you go and report a dog barking next door or some, 

Sarah: you know- Leave 

Karen Iles: that 

Sarah: dog alone ... 

Karen Iles: you know, fine, they might not have time to investigate that. But aggravated sexual violence of a child? [00:14:00] I'm sorry, but... And, and we commissioned, as part of this campaign, we commissioned a, um, social research.

Karen Iles: So you know the phone calling, um, surveys? And we had, um, the lovely team at Essential Media do that for us. Um, what that result came back with was that 88% of Australians thought and agreed, and strongly agreed, with the statement that police should investigate, should be compelled by law to investigate aggravated child sexual assault.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: If police aren't investigating the aggravated sexual assault of children- What the hell are they doing? What 

Sarah: are they doing? So m- Make Police Investigate highlights something that most people don't know, which is that police don't actually have a legal duty- 

Karen Iles: Correct ... 

Sarah: to investigate sexual assault. H- wh- when someone reports, what are they guaranteed?

Karen Iles: Nothing. 

Sarah: Nothing. 

Karen Iles: Nothing. They're guara- they're, they're not [00:15:00] guaranteed that they will have an interview. They're not guaranteed that they'll have the opportunity to make a sworn statement. Um, they're not guaranteed that the police will investigate, um, in any meaningful way. They're not guaranteed that the police will go and interview or even go pay th- a visit to the named- Mm

Karen Iles: perpetrator. Um, they're not guaranteed the police will interview a co-victim or, um, a, a witness. Um, and, um, and all these things. And even though there are some rules that gu- that are meant to guarantee that evidence is stored correctly- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: and safely and securely, in reality, the number of clients that I've had where police have lost essential evidence- 

Sarah: Lost

Karen Iles: I'm not sure how that happens. I mean- 

Sarah: I'm not sure how that happens. 

Karen Iles: Um, so it, it's a very [00:16:00] concerning, um, situation, and I think that there's a lot of, um, things that I think could be behind it, but I think really the people who need to be, um, interrogated, um, and, and really put under the spotlight to answer these questions honestly and truthfully under oath are police.

Sarah: So is it fair to say that whether or not a case is investigated comes down to discretion rather than obligation? 

Karen Iles: Absolutely. Um, and police often a- cite that operational requirements will determine what they do- Mm ... and don't investigate. And I think that what our community expects is that the operational requirements would require that the most serious crimes are prioritized.

Karen Iles: So crimes such as murder, such as aggravated child sexual assaults, um, you would think that they'd be top of the list. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: But unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case. And I think that what [00:17:00] happens is a few different factors. Firstly, who the victim is and how they present, who the perpetrator is and how they present- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm

Karen Iles: um, who the police officer is that takes that initial report- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: and the biases that they have The culture within the police station, and whether or not that police officer who, who took that report and was leading the case, whether or not, um, they are in a supportive culture, um, in order to make changes.

Karen Iles: Um, and then the type of crime. So if I can talk about each five of those. So firstly, I think the victim. How does the victim look? Does the victim look like the perfect victim? Young, white, pretty, um, and to excuse my language, because I don't agree with these statements, obviously, but [00:18:00] do they look like someone you'd like to rape?

Karen Iles: As opposed to the stereotypes and what you hear from coming out of the manosphere of, "I wouldn't rape that." 

Sarah: Yeah. "

Karen Iles: That woman's... You wouldn't rape that with a..." You know? 

Sarah: Oh, it makes me feel so ill. 

Karen Iles: It's, it's revolting, those kind of statements. But we often hear that about women of color, Aboriginal women, um, women who are overweight, women who have a disability, women who are older.

Sarah: Older women. 

Karen Iles: Yep. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: And so, you know, there's, there's that, of how... Women who are l- are lesbian. Um, so, or men. Um, or gender diverse, or trans. Mm. Like, you know, so unless you're a particular type of victim that looks like what you think a victim on TV looks like, um, I think that's one of the barriers. The second is, who's the perpetrator?

Karen Iles: So if the perpetrator is a wealthy- Man [00:19:00] or, or teenager who comes in lawyered up, with parents talking about, "This will destroy their career. This will destroy their reputation. You don't wanna do this. We're gonna... You know, we've got lawyers crawling all over this police investigation." The like, the intimidation that that would pl- place a normal co- police officer doing their job, I would find that...

Karen Iles: I mean, you can imagine the bullying that would go on in that situation. Mm. So there's who the perpetrator is. 

Sarah: I think an- another really typical example to talk about in that who is the perpetrator category is someone known to police, someone, as in a mate of the police officer- 

Karen Iles: Absolutely ... 

Sarah: in a close-knit community- Absolutely

Sarah: in a First Nations community- Absolutely ... I think of in particular. That's a big one, too. 

Karen Iles: Yeah, I mean, I've had one client who's from a small community. Um, and anecdotally, she knows that the police [00:20:00] frequent the venue that is owned by her perpetrator. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Um, and everyone does because it's a small community, and- Yeah

Karen Iles: it's the local place that you go to- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: um, for a Friday night out. 

Sarah: And it would ruin the vibe- It wouldn't, trust ... if we had to hold him accountable. 

Karen Iles: So but it's also who is the perpetrator. You know, is the perpetrator the type of perpetrator the police are interested in seeing as a perpetrator? 

Sarah: Yes. 

Karen Iles: So Aboriginal men, Muslim men, um, the list goes on.

Karen Iles: Um, the next one is, you know, that, that piece of, well, who, who's at the front desk, or who picks up the phone when you, when you make that first contact with police? And so what we know from social research, so the ABC Australia Talks survey is very good on this point, and it says that 60% of men, just on face value, will not believe a disclosure from a woman or a girl about sexual violence.

Karen Iles: And they play into all those myths of, oh, well, she must have [00:21:00] regretted it. She must have been asking for it. She must have... What was she wearing? You know, all of these things. Was she drunk? All of these myths. So 60% of men, that research says, don't believe a disclosure, and 30% of women don't believe a disclosure from another woman.

Karen Iles: Shame on them. And you think, well, police are just like all of us. And so if you just blanket applied 60%- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: 60% of male police and 30% of female police won't believe the disclosure, um, and it's a male-dominated profession. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: So who you're reporting to, are they likely to believe you? You're also potentially reporting to someone who is themselves experiencing vicarious trauma from the nature of their work- Mm

Karen Iles: day to day. And so when you experience vicarious trauma, you can tend to minimize things. You can de- tend to dismiss them. So that's [00:22:00] important. But even if you get a good police officer who is diligent and who is compassionate and trauma-informed and does their very best, if they're within the culture, and this is where the Queensland, um, inquiry into domestic violence and police attitudes and responses is very good, that 2022 judicial review and inquiry says that the systemic culture within these police stations, or within the police local area command, is very important.

Karen Iles: Because if, if particularly for women, there's a lot of evidence- Mm ... of sexism and misogyny towards women, and racism, um, towards women in the force. And so can you imagine if you were a police officer trying to raise this case up through the ranks and have it taken seriously by your local, um, superiors?

Karen Iles: If you're in a culture where it doesn't support that worldview that victims... You know, [00:23:00] y- y- you would be bonkers to go report something, like to put yourself through this. Um, it would just be so unusual to find that a victim is not telling the truth. And then the fifth, the fifth aspect is the type of crime.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: So is it the type of crime that police find difficult to fathom or difficult to investigate? So in the case of gang rape- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: you've got, in my case, two victims. So in my case, I'm lucky. I had a co-victim. And yet still no investigation. Um, but in most cases, it's one victim against a whole football team, a whole, you know, group of, of men, a- who are all lawyered up.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And so it's a very difficult [00:24:00] crime, I think, for police to get their head around how they investigate that, and how they balance the viewpoint and the experience and the truth of victims against what so many, a wall of perpetrators are saying. The, the other problem, I think, the other types of categories, is where police, I think, tend to struggle, is in that con- that, that definition of consent.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And which is what so many activists in Australia have been talking about, of where- We, I mean, I think our laws on consent are perfectly fine and quite clear. But what we see in research is that police don't understand those, or don't apply the law. Um, so that's one of the other things. If, if it's not, if it's not, like, some stranger in a balaclava- [00:25:00] Balaclava

Karen Iles: raping a woman on her way home- Mm ... through a deserted park of an evening, I mean, which I've got to say is not too dissimilar from my own personal experience- Yeah ... of being, you know, gang raped on a remote beach in the middle of the night. Um, but, you know, like, i- if it doesn't look like that, then, you know, i- if there's, if it's within a family context- 

Sarah: Yeah

Karen Iles: if it's within, um, a context of a Tinder date gone terribly wrong- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: um, th- there's a struggle there. So I think it's those five factors- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: that really influence, um, police, and this concept of discretion, and the unconscious bias of police at every, at every one of those five different points. 

Sarah: When, when 

Karen Iles: we talk- In my view, that's what gets in the way.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. When, when it's like when we, you know, ask how early decisions are being made about whether a case is worth pursuing, it's quite literally out the door. 

Karen Iles: Oh, I 

Sarah: mean- Like, or at the first phone [00:26:00] call. 

Karen Iles: Y- yeah, you, you look at the research and the, the thought leadership of, um, Malcolm Gladwell, you know, that American author.

Karen Iles: He wrote the book Blink. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: People who have 10,000 hours of experience, um, he talks about, but, but also i- it's people make a judgment in a flash. And it's how the victim looks, how the victim presents, how the perpetrator looks, how their lawyers are lawyering up, right? Yeah. What the crime is. All of these things are just chw, straight away.

Karen Iles: You look at Lindy Chamberlain, the case of Lindy Chamberlain, and the decisions that were made about her conduct as a grieving mother- Mm ... didn't seem to fit the mold. And there are many other cases in our legal system about that, of how judgments were made very early on about how a person of, a victim of a crime, or the mother of a crime against their children, um, are judged for how they turn up.

Sarah: Mm. How do these failures look [00:27:00] different for First Nations women? 

Karen Iles: Oh, just times by a million. 

Sarah: Quite simply, times infinity. 

Karen Iles: I mean, you know, I was in, um, Newcastle- On the day that the um, report into missing and murdering- murdered First Nations women and children, um, it was a parliamentary inquiry And you 

Sarah: gave evidence 

Karen Iles: to that I gave evidence at that in- at that inquiry, um, and many of, um, many First Nations women in my, um, community and social circles have spoken to me about the murders, um, and sexual assaults and disappearances.

Karen Iles: I think you, you get them in a continuum. In a spectrum, yeah You look at the case 

Sarah: of 

Karen Iles: Cindy and Mona Smith out, um, out in Bourke where it wasn't just a disappearance and a murder, but there was also a sexual assault. They, they tend to go hand-in-hand- Yes ... but we tend not to talk about the rape. Um, [00:28:00] and you know, I was with a number of Aboriginal women on that day, probably...

Karen Iles: I, I was skipping around seeing different clients, three different client sites, and all working with Aboriginal women and, you know, a few different Aboriginal women at each different location I was in on that day, and every single one of those women had a personal story from their family or their community of a woman or a girl that they knew who had either been disappeared, had been murdered, had been raped And not one of them had reported to police.

Karen Iles: Not one of them. Because they say, "Why bother?" 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Why bother? 

Sarah: And, and we're asking them to trust the same system that has historically harmed them. 

Karen Iles: Totally, 100%. And has harmed, um, y- you know, men in their community. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Um, [00:29:00] and, um, has, has never, I mean, since the, you know, the first days of, um, European, um, involvement in what we call, you know, now call Australia- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm

Karen Iles: um, you know, has, has never been there to support Aboriginal women. I mean, Aboriginal women, I mean, my family line, um, have been removed, have been put into domestic slavery, um, with all sorts of things happening to them by their, by their white, um, you know, master of the house. Mm. Um, and, and police have never been there to support and in fact, police have been- 

Sarah: Mm

Karen Iles: perpetrating that violence. Um, you know, um, particularly in the earlier days of, of, um, the settlement. Um, so you know, there's not much trust there and- 

Sarah: And 

Karen Iles: there shouldn't be ... rightfully so. 

Sarah: Yeah, exactly, rightfully so. 

Karen Iles: Um, and especially when, you know, you have... Like in Queensland at the moment, they've just decided to [00:30:00] abandon their domestic violence units.

Karen Iles: Um, too hard. Uh, not core business, maybe- Not core business ... is what they think. I don't know. Um, but you know, the, the, the... What's interesting is a case, and I'm going on a tangent here, but I've been representing and working with, um, a lovely man, Adair Lomas, who unfortunately, um, passed away a couple of months ago- Mm

Karen Iles: and I have permission from his partner, Megan, to talk about Adair. But Adair was fighting for justice for his sister Cardel Lomas, and Cardel's unborn child. Cardel was, um, was killed by her partner, um, in a horrific set of circumstances, and she reported to services, police included- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm ... 

Karen Iles: on 23 different occasions in the 10 months leading up to her death.

Sarah: I was like, over and over, but 23- 

Karen Iles: Yeah ... 

Sarah: is just so [00:31:00] high. 

Karen Iles: Yep. 

Sarah: Like- 

Karen Iles: And she was turning up to appointments with service providers with severe physical injuries that were noticeable, and noted in files. And so, a- and she... A- and the response from police was, "Oh, well, First Nations people don't trust us, so what are we meant to do?"

Karen Iles: And it's like- ... no, no, no, no. She went at high risk to her. She went and disclosed on a few occasions to police, and you did nothing. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: So actually no, when, when women- When children, when men, when gender diverse people, when trans people are at their wit's end, you call the police. You have to. There is no one else to call.

Karen Iles: Um, and you do, and when it lets you down so badly, um, this is the perpetual experience of First Nations women. 

Sarah: W- what do you think it is [00:32:00] about sexual assault? Like, i- if these same standards or lack of standards were applied to other crimes- Mm ... we wouldn't accept it. So w- what do you think, what do you think it is?

Karen Iles: I think it's, um- It's so widespread 

Sarah: Mm 

Karen Iles: So we know that one in six children are sexual- and I, I prefer the term sexually assaulted rather than sexually abused. I think abused can soften- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: the, the nature of the crime. The crime under law is sexual assault. Um, it used to be called rape. Um, in some areas it still is.

Karen Iles: And- You 

Sarah: and I both also- Yeah ... prefer the term rape as well. 

Karen Iles: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, rape's what happened to me. Let's 

Sarah: not water it down. 

Karen Iles: Yeah. Um, I mean, sexual assault does reflect the diversity- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: um, of, of things, but, um, and the breadth, um, and that's fine, but rape is what happened to [00:33:00] me, um, under the, you know, legal definition.

Karen Iles: Um, but you know, one in six children, um, have experienced sexual, sexual violence. Um, for women, it's one in five, and now alarmingly we see research that for young women, so girls and young women, 15 to 24 I think it is- Mm ... there was research released at the end of 2025 that actually that number has now dropped to one in four.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: So one in four young women are now being sexually assaulted. And then you've got one in 20 men. So the, this is huge as a society. We consider sexual violence at the upper end of our criminal code. Some sexual violence, for example, aggravated sexual violence of a child, carries a identical or similar [00:34:00] sentence to murder.

Karen Iles: That's how serious our society thinks that these crimes should be treated, yet it is so widespread. And you've got to ask yourself, and, and there's just such a lack of research on perpetration. I mean, um, there's been some recent research, um, done that shows that, you know, I, I think it's one in 10 men have self-identified.

Karen Iles: And you've got to think, "Well, I can't imagine many men self-identifying with this." Well, exactly. 

Sarah: They're the ones who are willing- I mean, it's surprising ... to do it in an anonymous survey. 

Karen Iles: I know. It's surprising that one in 10 men actually admit to this, but, um, y- you know, the numbers would be higher. 

Sarah: Mm, of course.

Karen Iles: Um, but they admit to either sexually assaulting a child or having fantasies about doing so, and it's creepy- Mm ... and it's horrible, and it makes you shiver. And, but when this many children- Women, gender diverse, trans, and men are [00:35:00] being sexually assaulted. How many perpetrators are there? 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: There's a lot of perpetrators in our society, and they are in every profession.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: They are in our judiciary, and we've seen the cases. They are barristers. We've seen the cases. They are lawyers. We've seen the cases. They are politicians. We've seen the cases. Like, they, they are l- leaders in industry and business. They are influential people. They are also carpenters, plumbers, NRL players, um, AFL players, professional surfers, um, golfers.

Karen Iles: Uh, e- they, they are lawnmower men. Like, they are, they are truck drivers. They are Ivan Milat. Um, they, they are everywhere in our society. And the willingness of our society to actually say that these men who are... A, a colleague of mine says, "Karen, [00:36:00] they..." Can I swear on this podcast? 

Sarah: Yes, ma'am. 

Karen Iles: Sh- these fuckers-

Karen Iles: they walk amongst us. They walk amongst us. Yeah. And they do. 

Sarah: They're people we know and love, and they're not in jail. 

Karen Iles: That's right. And, you know, can our jail, can our legal system deal with this- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: quantity? No. 

Sarah: Mm-mm. 

Karen Iles: Um, does that mean we should just turn our backs on it- Mm ... and condone it? Hell no. There has to be some better solutions, and we have to start looking to other jurisdictions, um, into how they're dealing with this, um, as a challenge.

Karen Iles: But we also need to be dealing with prevention, um, and starting to turn... I mean, it's so alarming that sexual assault is on the rise for young women, not on the decrease. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: Sexual violence is the only crime in Australia that has increased year on year on year for the last eight years, and this is not due to an increase in reporting.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: It's due to an increase in the [00:37:00] crime. So you look at the hyper- hyper-misogyny that exists in things like the manosphere. I mean, misogyny has always existed. Mm. It's just been, you know, given a, a new name through the manosphere and social media. Um, but it's, it's hyper. It's on steroids. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: Um, and when you've got high-profile cases of sexual violence, um...

Karen Iles: And you're gonna have to help me with the name of that rapper in America. 

Sarah: Oh, Diddy. 

Karen Iles: D- Diddy. P. Diddy. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: Right? Um, you know, you look at these high-profile cases, or you look at Epstein. You look at, um, Edward. No, sorry. Not Edward, Andrew. 

Sarah: Oh. 

Karen Iles: The, I don't even wanna say former prince. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?

Karen Iles: Yeah. Like, I don't even wanna dignify him with even- You know, referencing back that he was a prince. I mean, how disgraceful. Um, y- you know, e- all of these men being [00:38:00] completely unaccountable for their actions. Mm. And yet you've got this trail of victim survivors, you included, me included, um, and many others, who speak out about our truth, about what happened, and then we're kinda just left on the scrap heap.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: And then you have women like, um, you know, let's say her name, let's remember her, and I'm gonna cry now. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: But Virginia Giuffre. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Virginia Giuffre, who, who committed suicide on the eve of her truth, on the eve of her book being launched. 

Sarah: Mm. I think of 

Karen Iles: And what have we as a society, how are we culpable for this?

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And that's what is happening every single day, and there is a parliamentary inquiry at the moment going on into the suicides of women who've experienced sexual violence, who've experienced domestic violence. It's completely unrecorded. It's completely [00:39:00] unknown. And, and not just women. There's a man that I know whose son committed suicide after reporting to police.

Karen Iles: He committed suicide that night. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And it is, you know, another, um, young girl who was gang raped at one of these horrible, um, boys' private schools, and she took her own life. She was 19. Now, as a society, we have to fix this 

Sarah: I think about Christian Porter's alleged victim, Kate- 

Karen Iles: Yep ... 

Sarah: and how that- Yep ... kicked off those sets of rallies.

Sarah: And that's not what it should take. 

Karen Iles: That's right. 

Sarah: We've- We've stopped for a tissue break. We have. But we've spoken about how we have to be outraged. 

Karen Iles: We do, and our political leaders need to be outraged. 

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, we, we, we need to circulate that, [00:40:00] the inquiry, like crazy, but h- how can people give evidence?

Karen Iles: I mean, this is the thing. I mean, um, one of the other mini campaigns, um, you know- 

Sarah: Add to the list. 

Karen Iles: Have a, have a lot, and you know, the work we did together through the Law Reform, um, Commission, there was a long list of... This is not just an issue that plays out in the courtroom. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: This is an issue that plays out in so many segments of our justice system and our administration system and our insurance system and our financial system.

Karen Iles: Like, this is, sexual violence permeates through all of our systems in society. And th- the, the challenge for that inquiry of people talking openly about the suicides of victim-survivors, or if you're a victim-survivor, the mental health impact, is what we see, what I've seen in [00:41:00] my client base, is it get weaponized against victim-survivors for help-seeking.

Karen Iles: So women are... I've had one client who has said she will not see a mental health professional about dealing with childhood sexual abuse, because she's worried that that will be used against her in family law court proceedings. Mm-hmm. And it does. Um, we have instances in my clients where people have been, um, kicked off their insurance, like your insurance that you have through superannuation-

Karen Iles: your total permanent disability and income protection insurance, that if you have a preexisting mental health condition, and the only reason you've got the mental hea- the only reason you're on the antidepressant or the only reason you're seeing the psychologist is because of your rape- 

Sarah: What, so now they wanna say that- They-

Sarah: it causes mental harm? 

Karen Iles: Yeah, so then they say, "Well, you've got a preexisting mental- 

Sarah: Ugh ... 

Karen Iles: um, [00:42:00] health condition, so we will not insure you for anything to do with mental health." So if you, for example, see some horrific incident like you were caught up in 9/11 and had PTSD from it, you would not be covered by your TPD- or if you developed a chronic permanent injury, your total permanent disability, or your income protection insurance, because you had a pre-existing disposition to a mental health condition because of a previous sexual assault.

Karen Iles: I've also seen clients who have been denied workers' compensation because they were... So they were bullied at work and attempting to access workers' comp entitlements because of that, and the insurer found, through their medical records, that they'd been a victim of sexual assault, either as a child or an adult, and so therefore said, "Well, you're predisposed to a mental health condition.

Karen Iles: You've already been treated for [00:43:00] anxiety or depression or, or seen a psychologist or been on a mental health plan through, you know, the, the 10 free sessions that you get through the government." So therefore, the mental injury that you've suffered at work from being bullied, uh-uh, that's a pre-existing condition, my friend.

Sarah: Nope. This is infuriating. It's- We're gonna have to talk more about how to bring awareness- 

Karen Iles: This is- ... to 

Sarah: this ... 

Karen Iles: and, and why we don't have awareness is because how can victim-survivors go into those inquiries and say, "I've got a mental health injury because of my sexual assault." Y- you're essentially putting on the public record that, and do you reckon that insurance company- 

Sarah: Mm

Karen Iles: is gonna pay you out for a mental health injury completely to something separate, unrelated, when you've put that on the public record on Hansard- ... in Parliament? Good luck. I mean, it was only yesterday that I was speaking to a lawyer from a [00:44:00] different firm who represents employers who are funded through their insurance companies in employment matters, and they routinely ask for a victim's full medical history, and they see the sexual violence records, and they attempt to get out of the insurance claim for workplace bullying because of the previous sexual violence.

Karen Iles: It is disgusting- That is outrageous ... and despi- and despicable, and something that our politicians need to act on, and it's something that I'm actively involved in lobbying in. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: It's something that, um, you know, that you and I had made, um, recommendations to the Law Reform Commission on. Um, but it is... And, and when we look at gender inequality in Australia, and you look at the wage gap, and you look at women having economic independence- 

Sarah: Mm

Karen Iles: well, wouldn't we want an Australia where women and other [00:45:00] victim-survivors are properly insured? Sure. Wouldn't we want that safety net for them? But unfortunately, that safety net is being eroded by quite despicable, and in my view, unethical lawyers. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Sorry, peers, but I think you're unethical. 

Sarah: You tell them.

Karen Iles: Mic drop. 

Sarah: Your campaign Make Police Investigate, one of many- ... as we've just canvassed 

Karen Iles: They keep mushrooming. 

Sarah: Yeah. They 

Karen Iles: just spring. Bec- because of the experiences of my clients. Well, 

Sarah: yeah, because of the 

Karen Iles: needs 

Sarah: everywhere. 

Karen Iles: Like, like what can you do? Mm-hmm. You hear, you hear these experiences, and as a lawyer, you try and do what you can- 

Sarah: Yeah

Karen Iles: either through the law or through political, um, avenues to try and change the situation. I 

Sarah: think not all lawyers. I think you in particular- 

Karen Iles: No, well, it's- ... are- I mean, you're the same. I mean, how can you just sit on your hands? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: How can you ignore this? 

Sarah: Make Police Investigate is calling for a legal duty to investigate.

Sarah: What, what would that change practically? 

Karen Iles: It, it would mean [00:46:00] that there needs to be some basic investigative steps, not like anything, you know, super-duper, but some very basic mandatory steps that need to occur when a victim reports sexual violence at a police station or online or whichever method of reporting they choose, that some basic things occur, and they are basic steps that our community would expect, um, such as a statement being taken, a sworn statement being taken, evidence collected and stored, not lost- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm

Karen Iles: stored. Um, and that when a perpetrator is named or a v- or a material witness, like a co-victim or someone who saw it, is named, that they be interviewed. And that those named perpetrators are interviewed. [00:47:00] Like, that is what I think a very basic minimum 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Mm And you, you might want to say, "Well, let's take and let's start with making these mandatory investigation standards for the most serious sexual assaults."

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: So, you know, look, all, all sexual assaults are bad. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: All sexual assaults are illegal, but there is a spectrum- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm ... 

Karen Iles: of the seriousness of harm. Um, and you could start at the higher end of the spectrum with imposing this duty. Um, there are requirements in some states and territories for police to have to investigate- Mm

Karen Iles: domestic violence, but not sexual violence. They've left the S out. 

Sarah: They've left the S out, as per. Per usual. What, what do you think about New South Wales, uh, trialing exceptional clearance? 

Karen Iles: Yeah, so look, that's, that's great. Um, however- 

Sarah: Mm ... [00:48:00] 

Karen Iles: um, it's not for all cases. 

Sarah: Yep. 

Karen Iles: Um, and what's happening is if you can't get through that front desk of the police station, or you can't get through the hierarchy within that police station, it, it doesn't get fed into that system.

Karen Iles: So we need better checks and balances, but we also need to make sure that we have independent oversight. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Because what, again, referencing that commission of inquiry in Queensland in 2022 with Justice Richards, is that when you have... And she said, this is not my words, this is her words, "Systemic racism, sexism, and misogyny," those three words, racism, sexism, and misogyny, baked in, hardwired into a police s-service, into a police system, you've got Buckley's.

Karen Iles: Yeah. So you need independent, and this, and w- this is what she recommended. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: She [00:49:00] recommended a completely independent of police, completely separate- complaints and oversight body. And that's why the legal minimums need to be legislated, not just codes of practice- Mm ... or codes of conduct that are like an employment policy at work- Mm

Karen Iles: of, you know, don't, you know, do this or that at work. They're not legally enforceable. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: So we need legally enforceable duties and minimum things that police need to do, that if they don't do them, there is an independent, separate oversight body that goes and checks and says, "Oh, guys, you missed that step."

Karen Iles: E- And, and the Northern Ireland model says, "Well, if the victim has lost complete trust and faith in the police, then you know what? We're gonna, we're gonna have the power ourselves- Mm ... to go and just redo that investigation, and we've got the statutory powers to do that, and we'll just do the investigation."

Karen Iles: Because that way we're not [00:50:00] re-traumatizing the victim. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: Because what we see is- Police, when you complain at the moment to the police conduct commissions, and you see it in different jurisdictions, it's approximately 95% of cases of complaints about c- police conduct- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: 95% go back to the same police station that you were complaining about.

Karen Iles: Now, when you've got a police station of 10 people, what do you th- h- how do you think that's gonna go? Police investigating police- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: is an issue, uh, you know, as old as this country. Well, as old as E- English people arriving in this country. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: It is a global issue. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: It is where corruption festers.

Karen Iles: Self-regulation of industries is very rare, and we need those independent bodies to be evaluating whether police did or didn't do their job. Um, and then where they didn't do their job, taking it out of their hands and doing it properly. Otherwise, you're [00:51:00] just re-victimizing the, the victim by putting them through that police process again.

Sarah: W- what do you think justice looks like for victims who have had their cases wrongly closed by police? Yeah. The Law Reform Commission made- Mm-hmm ... some recommendations, as we know. W- what do you think about those recommendations? 

Karen Iles: Oh, I think there's, I think there's a lot that our politicians can be doing.

Karen Iles: Um, we're now, I think it's two years now- Yeah ... after- Two years ... since, since, more than, since, um, Mark Dreyfus, who was then the, the Honorable, um, Mark Dreyfus, our former attorney general, um, had that report handed to him by the Law Reform Commission. There's then been an election. He has now been replaced by the Honorable Michelle Rowland as attorney general.

Karen Iles: Um, s- we've w- we just seem to have gone [00:52:00] into that void again. And politically, there is a lot of, there is a lot in that Law Reform Commission report. Um, states and territories, uh, seem to be quite, um, slow off the mark, if they're even on the mark. Mm. Uh, uh, have they even turned up at the r- start, at the starting line?

Karen Iles: I don't know. Um, you know, are, have they doing their stretches anywhere? I don't think so. Um, so there is so much that can be done. Um, and yet, and, and the scale of the problem is so big. So this is a question for our politicians and our prime minister. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Why the delay? When this is such a problem for so many children, girls, women, gender diverse, trans, and men, what, why are we so slow as a country to respond?

Karen Iles: And the recommendations are there. The recommendations are there in coronial inquests. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: The recommendations are everywhere around. The royal 

Sarah: [00:53:00] commissions, all of the- 

Karen Iles: All of it, right? Like- 

Sarah: Who's- 

Karen Iles: Ugh. 

Sarah: With the- Ugh ... with the police With the minimum standards of investigation and a, a legally enforceable duty of care 

Karen Iles: Which we haven't actually spoken about.

Karen Iles: So- 

Sarah: I know we haven't, but- ... 

Karen Iles: the duty of care. So at the moment, what you find is that police will have a duty of care for, for example, if someone's in custody. So if they're in the lockup, police have absolute duty of care over that person. They are in a jail cell. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: Um, and police have responsibility essentially to keep them alive and, and well, to not injure them, to not, um- 

Sarah: Cause harm

Karen Iles: have them die- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: on their watch, for example. Um, there is a duty of care. A victim, as a random member of the public, the duty of care to not harm them is incredibly lacking. [00:54:00] And what we find and where the, where the harm is occurring is in these big silences, is in the doing nothing, is in the haven't heard from them for several years.

Karen Iles: You know, that, that is the psychological harm that happens to victims, and it can be easily solved. 

Sarah: Well, what you're asking for is so commonsensical. Who, who's resisting? 

Karen Iles: Well, unfortunately, um, I mean, you and I have raised this through the Law Reform Commission. Um, the Law Reform Commission went... Some- 

Sarah: Wouldn't 

Karen Iles: touch it

Karen Iles: they, they, the, um, former Attorney General Mark Dreyfus specifically put police responses in their scope. There's one or two out of the, how many recommendations? Like- 

Sarah: 64. 

Karen Iles: 64. There's one or two that relate to police. But it's, it's nothingness- ... in my view. Um, so but I've personally written to, [00:55:00] um, every attorney general in every state and territory.

Karen Iles: Um, I've written to the prime minister. I've written to our federal attorney general. I've written to federal ministers for, um, for women, for, um, women's safety, for, for all sorts. Um, and w- we've had a petition with over 50,000 Australians not only sign it, but leave their comments- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Karen Iles: and share their own personal stories in those comments.

Karen Iles: Um, we've had the opinion polling commissioned through Essential Media to show that 88% of Australians think this is a great idea. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: That is higher polling than same-sex marriage. Like- 

Sarah: That's a- ... 

Karen Iles: this is an electoral winner. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: Like, and, and of the 12% of people that don't want it, who are they? 

Sarah: Who 

Karen Iles: are 

Sarah: they?

Sarah: So true. Who are, who are they? Like whose 

Karen Iles: side of this do you 

Sarah: wanna be on? Like how can we find out who they are and investigate them? 

Karen Iles: Yeah. Well, I, I think it's a [00:56:00] good start, right? But, you know, it's an electoral winner, so why aren't our politicians acting on what are... And these are not just my recommendations.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: These have been developed by peers of mine in the profession. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: By, um, o- fellow solicitors and barristers This is a well-researched, well-evidenced, sensible solution. And in terms of police saying, "Well, we have to use discretion on what we do and don't investigate," look, yes, but not for the most serious crimes.

Karen Iles: Mm. Cut it out. Time to move. You know, w- we need to get with the times. Y- you know, is, is it really... You know, some of these other things that are being investigated, are they, are they as much or more of a priority than these type of crimes? No, they're not. We need to get on with it as a society. 

Sarah: Where does independent legal representation- 

Karen Iles: Oh, it's critical

Sarah: fit into this? 

Karen Iles: It's critical. I mean, you and I have had that experience. You and I have [00:57:00] engaged our own lawyers to help us navigate and get through police. 

Sarah: It's not- And just have them do what their job is. It's not 

Karen Iles: doing anything extra. Cops, cops do, cops do your job, right? Copdoyourjob.com. Cops do your job.

Karen Iles: No. Make Police Investigate, that's the, that's the official tagline, makepoliceinvestigate.org. 

Sarah: Dot 

Karen Iles: org. But, um, y- you, in my view, and in my clients' experience, and what they come to us for, is to help us, is to help them get police to see them as a serious victim. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: And to actually follow the process that they should, um, and actually do their, what the community expects their job is.

Karen Iles: And unfortunately, that is why you need a lawyer. And you also need a lawyer, um, in court, because the prosecution is there to represent the state, the state of New South Wales, the state of Western Australia. They, they're there to [00:58:00] represent the interests of the state, not the interests of the victim, and they are different.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: The interests of the victim are about keeping the victim well and safe through that process, and that is why they need an advocate in court. And the reason why I'm so firm on we need, and I know you are, on independent lawyers, not social workers, not counselors, but lawyers, is because there is lawyer-client privilege.

Karen Iles: Privilege. So everything a victim says to that lawyer when they're making critical decisions about whether they should or shouldn't report, whether they should or shouldn't access mental health support, given the impacts on their insurance, or a family law case- Mm ... or what have you, all of these things cannot be touched by a vindictive- defendant.

Karen Iles: And we've seen that in high-profile cases, um, with the defendant Bruce Lehrmann. [00:59:00] We're now seeing it with 1800RESPECT- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm ... 

Karen Iles: who are a privately run govern- it's government service, 1800RESPECT, but it's run by a private provider. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Karen Iles: They're getting called by these defense lawyers, and you can imagine the young people perhaps who answer these phone calls from these defense lawyers who might be a bit bullish, and receiving subpoenas, and instead of understanding the law, that actually, no, they're, they're confidential counseling records, they're just handing them over.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: Handing them over to the defendant. How outrageous. So that is why we, we cannot have the government... You know, lovely that they're investing in what they're now calling justice system navigators, but we need the protection for victims, that their communication, that their decision-making about what they wanna do is with a lawyer, so [01:00:00] that they can receive legal advice, not someone's opinion, uneducated, well-meaning, but, uh, uneducated.

Karen Iles: Mm. Because they are not a lawyer, they cannot give legal advice. It is illegal for a social worker to give legal advice. It is illegal for a mental health counselor to give legal advice. There's penalties. It's, in New South Wales- Mm ... it's six months jail. Like, it's serious- More than 

Sarah: most perpetrators 

Karen Iles: will get

Karen Iles: it's, I know, right? Like, it's serious stuff, and it's like if you were a doctor. You can't go giving medical advice unless you're a doctor. Mm. Um, so we need independent lawyers, and it's funny also saying independent lawyers. I know, when the- It's actually 

Sarah: just, 

Karen Iles: because a lawyer is, is not independent in the sense that they are there fighting for you every step of the way.

Karen Iles: They are there representing you. They believe you. They are in your corner, and they are gonna stick up for you. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And that's what victims need, is someone to stick up for them. [01:01:00] 

Sarah: You have been such a wealth of knowledge, Karen. I feel like you can pull from an endless, like, pile of facts. Um, and I mean, it just shows how clear the evidence is, and how ridiculous that these things aren't being implemented.

Sarah: My last question to you is, is something personal. It's what keeps you motivated to do this work- Yeah ... when, when the system fails over and over, you, your clients, me, the people you work with. What keeps you motivated? 

Karen Iles: I think, um, when, when you have lived it, you can't put it down. And as a Aboriginal woman, I have a, I feel, a sense of obligation and responsibility to [01:02:00] use my education, to use my position in the legal profession to make change for my people, for my women.

Karen Iles: And that is my cultural, I see that as my cultural responsibility. Um, I also grew up, you know, a lot of my heritage is Scottish, and I had a great- an, an aunt, um, so my grandmother's sister, who really instilled in me the value that if you have an education, she didn't have an education. If you have an education, you bloody well use it.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: And this is the thing that, you know, when, when you have experienced these things, it is you. It becomes you. And it's a crappy thing that sexual violence, that, that it is ingrained in you, but it doesn't have to be a negative thing. And we talk about, you and I identify with the [01:03:00] term victim. I'm a victim of a crime That doesn't mean that I have victim mentality.

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: It doesn't mean that you or I are sitting in a cor- I just had a cry a minute ago about Virginia Giuffre, but it doesn't mean that we're sitting in a corner with a box of tissues, you know- Mm ... every day. It, that actually this, doing this work, if done in a trauma-informed and safe way, with all of the mental health supports around you that you need so that you don't absorb it, that you don't re-traumatize yourself doing it, you know, it can be a site of healing.

Karen Iles: And there's many feminist authors that have spoken about doing the work is healing. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: Um, but, and I, and I think even, um, in The Body Keeps the Score, um, the author speaks about doing the work in a safe way can be healing. But when you've had these things happen to yourself, to your [01:04:00] friends, to family members, to community members, how can you turn away from them?

Karen Iles: And we must lean into this conversation as a society. We can't keep saying, "Oh, rape's a horrible word. Ooh, ooh, I don't wanna know about that." We have to get over it, and the only way we're gonna fix it is by people leaning into this space, getting active- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Karen Iles: and using their professional skills to start doing something about it.

Karen Iles: Because I bet your bottom dollar that whatever profession you're in, whatever trade you're in, whatever occupation you're in, and even if you have, if you're not in the workforce, volunteer, get involved. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: That's the way we're gonna make change. And, and, and that is, that self-sustaining, I mean, the, the hope that, that we will get there at some point.

Karen Iles: It might not be while I'm still alive. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Karen Iles: But at some point something will tip the scales. I [01:05:00] doubt it's gonna be me. It hasn't been me so far. I'll put it that way. But at some point we will. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: And, um, but we need to keep building that wall. We need to keep having all of us making the human pyramid so that we can stand on the shoulders of others, and others can stand on our shoulders.

Karen Iles: Mm. So we've gotta keep going, um, but we've gotta do it in a sustaining way. For me, the beach. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Karen Iles: Um, for me, getting on country on the Hawkesbury River in New South Wales at, um, just north of Sydney, Gerobben, um, and Gunnangae, the lower Macdonald River where my ancestors are from. Putting my s- feet in that river- Oh, I'm just 

Sarah: picturing it

Karen Iles: that's the shit, right? Yeah. That's what keeps me going. Um, and having a good old sunbake and getting a few extra skin cancers. God. Feeling the sun on my skin, that, that rejuvenates me. Yeah. And, and having that mental break and giving you the resilience to keep going. 

Sarah: Mm. Thank you so much for being raw [01:06:00] and honest and incredibly knowledgeable and outraged and inspiring.

Sarah: It is such an honor to be next to you and work with you always. 

Karen Iles: Right back at you. And if I ever started a podcast series, which I doubt I would have the courage to do- ... um, you will be my first guest, Sarah- Thank you ... because you are equally as knowledgeable, experienced, professional, and passionate. Um, and your work deserves to be spotlighted as well, so thank you so much.

Karen Iles: It's an absolute honor to sit alongside you, um, in this work. 

Sarah: If you've listened this far, you already know something most Australians don't. Victim survivors are the only people in sexual offense trials without their own lawyer. That doesn't have to stay true, but justice systems don't change because they quietly evolve. hey change because people understand them and demand better. Go to withyouwecan.org to be a part of that demand. This has been What No One Told Us.