Inside The First Door, with Jacob Gooden

What really happens when someone first reports sexual violence to police? This episode with former Victorian police officer Jacob Gooden explores the immense power held at the earliest stages of the justice process, and how first responses can shape everything that follows.

Learn more about Sayfe Disclose here and find Jacob on Instagram @sayfe.official. 

Learn more about the justice system and Sarah's advocacy at www.withyouwecan.org, and follow us on Instagram @withyouwecan_ and LinkedIn. 

Transcript

Sarah: This podcast discusses sexual violence and other material listeners may find distressing. Please look after yourself as you listen, and feel free to switch off at any point. You can visit withyouwecan.org to find help, but remember to call triple zero in emergencies. We're recording on the lands of the Gadigal, where sovereignty was never ceded. We recognize that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples continue to experience the ongoing impacts of colonization, including disproportionate rates of sexual violence and institutional harm. We pay our respects to elders past and present, and commit to advocacy that does not replicate the harms it seeks to address. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. 

Victim-survivors live in a constant state of the unknown. I know that because I've lived it. Shrouded in secrecy, silenced by process, we're asked to place our faith in a justice system that was never designed for us at the most vulnerable moment of our lives, but I won't stand for it. We're cracking this system wide open so you and everyone around you understands what it actually means to navigate the legal system after sexual violence. I'm Sarah Rosenberg, executive director of With You We Can, and this is What No One Told Us. 

Sarah: We're joined by Jacob Gooden. Jacob joined Victoria Police in 2014 at just 21 years old, stepping into what he believed would be his dream job and lifelong career. Over more than a decade of service, he worked across metropolitan and regional stations in a range of roles, including youth resource officer, police Aboriginal liaison officer, drug and firearm disruption investigator, and media officer, and was twice seconded to specialist task forces. But the work that defined him most was as a specialist detective in sexual offenses and family violence. Being trusted to help people feel safe, seen, and heard during some of the most traumatic moments of their lives is something he considers the greatest honor of his service. In 2025, at 32, Jacob was medically retired following a serious mental health injury sustained in the course of his duties. While that injury ended his policing career, it didn't erase the insight gained from more than a decade on what he calls the privileged side of the counter, alongside formal study in public safety. He now channels what he half-jokingly describes as erratic innovation, an inability to ignore systemic shortcomings, into thinking about better ways to strengthen community safety and social impact. Above all, Jacob is a husband and father of two, and he says every step of the journey has been worth it if it led him back to them.

Sarah: Jacob, thank you so much for being here. We're gonna jump straight in. If someone walked into a station right now to report a sexual assault, what would happen? 

Jacob: Whoa. It is... And, and I knew that question was coming, and it is a really heavy topic to dive into because Having this conversation, we need to strike the balance of acknowledging that there are problems with the system, and things need [00:03:00] to be fixed about the experience, while also not deterring somebody from taking this step.

Sarah: And also, as we've spoken about at length, striking the balance between us using humor to cope with the gravity of the situation, and not scaring people away into thinking that this is a light-hearted issue. 

Jacob: Yes, and, and, and it definitely, it, it definitely isn't, and something you've heard me say before is we are both coming at this conversation from different sides of the counter, so to speak.

Jacob: Our experiences have come from what I call the privileged side of the counter- Mm ... with a policing experience, and you having stood on the other side of it. And yeah, it, it is, it is worth acknowledging that I'm from Victoria, so my policing experience is from Victoria. The experience you s- had, you had was in New South Wales.

Jacob: So this may not be necessarily universal, but there are definitely some [00:04:00] themes which, having had my own experience behind the counter and having spoken at length with survivors- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: I'm, I'm trying to combine, um, yeah, I guess a bit of an insight into, uh, what that might look like. And, you know, it is, first of all can I say, the decision to walk into a police station is probably one of the bravest things I could ever imagine somebody doing.

Jacob: So if somebody's watching this and they've made that decision or they're contemplating it, and whether it's something they've already done or whether they're thinking about doing it in the future, you deserve to be commended for that. Um, but just stepping in is, is so daunting because while there are- Oh, it, it's, it's really tough because I, I can, I can give advice on a, on a safe way to navigate [00:05:00] the system.

Jacob: But the reality is that for a lot of people, they're not planning to have this experience. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Jacob: So it's not necessarily going to be the case that somebody's put proactive thinking into, "How am I going to do this?" So for a lot of people it will be, well, the police station's the right place to go. And if you walk in and it might be a crowded police station, depending on when it is, you know, there's people lining up for all things, reporting lost property, uh, their car's been stolen, and while those things are serious to that person, it is a bit like apples and oranges- Yeah

Jacob: to say, "Who's having a worse day?" 

Sarah: I remember, um, listening to someone report a lost toolbox, and it was just really a, a great distraction for me just listening to that. But it is, it was like, "Wow, imagine if I was here for that. Wouldn't that be, wouldn't that be nice?" 

Jacob: Yeah. 

Sarah: Um, and then [00:06:00] immediately chastising myself and going, "Oh, that, that guy's probably having a really tough day.

Sarah: It sucks that his toolbox is gone." Um, but it just feels so surreal immediately because you're not, you know, walking into a special place, um, at least in most jurisdictions. You're walking into just an average police station, and you are surrounded by all types of people from all walks of life. And yeah, it's just im- immediately a feeling that is, is so surreal.

Jacob: That's the reality for the police officer behind the counter as well. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: Because for every one Sarah walking into a police station, there's 10 toolboxes. More, there's m- there's more than 10 toolboxes, and in all likelihood, the person who's standing behind the counter is the most junior person on duty at that moment.

Jacob: And- It is imperfect. I don't know, I, I don't [00:07:00] know how you necessarily fix that, because it is a little bit of reality. Policing at the front line is jack of all trades, master of none. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: But the reality is that Sarah might walk in- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: with Sarah's story, and I guarantee you the person who has just graduated is going to be the most well-intentioned person when you begin to speak of your experience.

Jacob: And I can say that because I, obviously, I did 11 and a half years with Victoria Police. I was once that junior person on the front counter, so I don't say any of this as throwing mud, because I've been part of the system myself. But you're so far out of your depth to hear that for the first time. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Jacob: And there are certain subjective components to what it's gonna be like.

Jacob: Who, what is the communication style of the person reporting it? [00:08:00] Is it because there will be people who come in and, "I've taken this massive step, I need to say everything all at once." 

Sarah: Yeah. "

Jacob: Because who knows if I'll ever have the courage to go through with this again. I'm gonna get it all out, and then it's gonna be done."

Jacob: Mm. Like, that might be someone's... And that's a nightmare scenario to be behind the counter, 'cause you're gonna be furiously scribbling notes. Interru- "Oh, sorry, can you just say that again? Ca- can you sp- can you sp- Just repeat the really horrible thing 

Sarah: one more time. 

Jacob: Yeah. And the issue with that is, and, and this is something I've, because you did give me some of the questions ahead of time, and I, I've really been trying to, to think a lot about it.

Jacob: Uh, the ideal scenario would be, in a perfect world, you would obtain, as that front person on the counter, the least information possible- 

Sarah: Yep ... 

Jacob: that will still allow you to inform the [00:09:00] specialist to come and get involved. You know, as is often the case, somebody will tell their whole story to a junior member taking notes, and they're, they don't have a recorder going.

Jacob: It's their handwritten notes trying to keep up with you. And then at the end of it, that might be the moment where they realize, "Oh, I'm out of my depth here." 

Sarah: Mm. "

Jacob: I need to go get a supervisor," or, "I need to go get a senior member." 

Sarah: And we've got to start again. 

Jacob: They come out and they do it, and they've got notes, too.

Jacob: And again, well-intentioned, but- We've still th- then gotta go get a detective. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: And- 

Sarah: And where's the detective, right? D- does every station have a specialist? 

Jacob: No, and this is, and this is, uh, you know, another really powerful question to ask because for good reason You want to house your victim-centric investigators off site so that if, say, somebody was under surveillance by [00:10:00] their offender, because in most instances, the perpetrators are known to their victims.

Jacob: If they're watching them and they see them walk into a police station, they know that they've gone to report them. Yeah. So there is good reason to have a multidisciplinary center off site. However, that doesn't help this imperfect situation of what happens when somebody bypasses and goes straight in, because as we said, chances are somebody's not doing all the research on the right way to do this.

Jacob: It's a, it's a, it's the worst experience of somebody's life to, to go through this. But to, to avoid going too far off topic, by the time we have a, get to the end of the detective getting brought up to speed, there's three different- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: sets of notes, and that none of them are the statement of what's happened.

Jacob: Yeah. 

Sarah: None of them are the statement. I think that's the, um, for me, that was something that just from the start, [00:11:00] I was like, "Oh, oh, this is not what I thought it was. This is not like we see in the movies or in Law & Order." And that much is, you know, slightly obvious, but you still think you'd get a little indication.

Jacob: Yep. 

Sarah: And so for me, you know that, um, I was already up to my second station, um, and second detective, spent five hours reporting, and then was told I should really consider reporting, and I thought I was making a statement. And so, so many people don't know about that initial report you give before the decision to make a statement- 

Jacob: Yep

Sarah: is, is decided. And it's actually like, it can be quite a useful tool if we, if we bring awareness to it, because that means someone can walk into a police station if they're, if they feel safe to do so, and have access to one, and they can just register a name, and they can just, y- you know, like feel like they've gotten something off [00:12:00] their chest.

Sarah: There's maybe a flag next to that person's name in the system now, and it doesn't mean signing a statement and potentially initiating an investigation. Not that that's the victim's choice, but it's quite a good tool, I think, and it could, it, I don't think that's what it's intended for, but it's been something, I think it's like one of the things I keep coming back to when I explain to people their options, that i- it's kind of like, uh, creating a little bit of space for a victim to make a decision- 

Jacob: Mm

Sarah: um, that they didn't think they had the option to do. But, you know, we know that that's not why, um, it, it's more about the imperfect system. Um- So we're up to three, three people. Statement hasn't been made yet. 

Jacob: Yep. 

Sarah: When does that kick in? And is that up to the victim? 

Jacob: So by, by the time you get to the detective, and depending on And there's gonna be [00:13:00] jurisdictional differences- Absolutely

Jacob: to this. Um, you would hope that the first detective, there has been a sexual offenses detective available to come in, and that they haven't had to do the on-call. Like regional areas, the on-call person- Yeah ... might be, you know, a high-volume crime detective coming in, which would be, you know, just another terrible scenario.

Jacob: Who... And, and they would have to juggle decisions like, is this report, you know, historical to the sense that there's n- no active crime scene that needs to be, to be dealt with? Is that part of the conversation, or is this, you know, if something happened a couple weeks ago, you can probably be reasonably confident that we can take this a little bit slower because there's no...

Jacob: We're not gonna m- make things worse by waiting till tomorrow to take this- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm ... 

Jacob: statement. But if you, if you were to gain relatively contemporary access to a specialist [00:14:00] detective, sh- they should be led by what headspace is, um, the survivor in while they're talking to me. 

Sarah: Do- I note you say should. 

Jacob: Yeah, yes.

Jacob: And, and this is... And, and because I, I, I know that this is such a nuanced space. You can never speak in absolutes with what... Like I, I, I did the training. I've, I've been through it all. I know exactly what should and should not be done. Um, can I tell everyone that everyone who has done that training will live up to that standard?

Jacob: No, I can't. Um, so I'm very s- I'm very strong on my shoulds and- Mm ... woulds and wills, and... But if, if somebody is, looks like they've been up for 24 hours and you can tell that just coming into the station has been a big step for them today, we [00:15:00] will... And not to mention just asking the question, "Do you think you're up for this now?"

Jacob: and making them aware that this is gonna be a really cognitively heavy experience. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Jacob: And giving that agency 

Sarah: to- Is a kindness. 

Jacob: I- I- absolutely. And, you know, I, I, I am really positive in my reflection on the specialist detectives, particularly within Victoria. I do think they do, once you reach them, that they do extraordinary work.

Jacob: Again, I can't speak in absolutes. I would not, I would not tell anyone who had a bad experience that they've misunderstood that because I... There's not more personal for anyone than that person to make that judgment. But the barriers that exist to getting to that specialist, that's, that's where I think, uh, the largest issues exist But once you're there, e- [00:16:00] empathy is at the center of the specialist training.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: But that is specialist training. That's specialist training. And that is not the first person you speak to. 

Sarah: At what point does someone's disclosure become an investigation? 

Jacob: In terms of an investiga- i- it's sort of an investigation from moment one, once, once. B- but in terms of when it becomes a formal report, that's, that's where it goes onto this, and that will be a decision made by the detectives, and, and they will, they will absolutely make, make a report.

Jacob: It will go on the system, but that doesn't, that doesn't mean that it needs to be pursued. Mm-hmm. So, if somebody says, "I just want to..." I- if it is one of the, "I just want to get this off my chest"- My chest ... and say, they're not going to pretend. They can't un-hear that. Like, that information needs to go somewhere for intelligence.

Sarah: Well, yeah. And you've got [00:17:00] local... Sometimes it's on such a local level, um, a police station will have a new protocol in place that's well-intentioned, but completely undermining of not only- 

Jacob: Mm ... 

Sarah: a victim's agency, but also of almost, um... Well, for the, you know, for the sector, um, and given what we know about perpetrators of violence or people who use violence, it's almost commonsensical, but they'll say, "No, we're taking DV really seriously this month, and we are gonna...

Sarah: We have a protocol that we have to go and knock on this person's door now that you've reported." And it's like, okay, well, I'm obviously not gonna pursue a report then. And it's, it's so difficult when there's a mis- 

Jacob: There's, like... And I know you've spoken about it. Um, if anyone watching this does, is on LinkedIn, please follow Sarah's work.

Jacob: She posts incredible stuff there. But you, you once drew attention to the fact that we often refer to the sector as [00:18:00] FDSV, family domestic vi- family domestic sexual violence, all as one group. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jacob: There are very different approaches to the FD and the SV. 

Sarah: Absolutely. 

Jacob: And so some of the issues you touched on there in terms of obligation to bat forward.

Jacob: Because with family domestic violence, a lot of that is once becoming aware of it, there's an obligation to put a protection- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: in place to ensure it doesn't happen again because there's, you know, the intervention order or, uh, or AVO-type thing. So that doesn't need to proceed to a charge. That doesn't need to reach the same evidentiary threshold.

Jacob: Threshold. So that's balance of probabilities to get an AVO- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Jacob: Sydney. Um, AVO versus IVO in Victoria- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Jacob: to reach that threshold. So there is more urgency in- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm ... 

Jacob: somewhat taking away your [00:19:00] agency. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: And again, imperfect, whereas sexual violence, because to pursue that you need to have a brief of evidence that goes beyond a reasonable doubt- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm

Jacob: there is far more control put back onto the reporting person 

Sarah: With that evidentiary threshold- 

Jacob: Mm ... 

Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about downstream decision-making. Yeah. How much do you think Anticipating a potential jury's attitudes influences investigations before a case even, even reaches court, let alone, uh, uh, the director of public prosecutions.

Jacob: Yeah, this is, this is one I think, I think if you polled, um, 100 different police, you'd get 100 different answers- Yeah ... on it. I sorta got to the stage early where I took that out of my mind completely, and I [00:20:00] just assumed, I, I wanted to go into it, and it was m- m- it's probably from a sporting background, just like, I'll, I'll take-

Jacob: I'll take on negative, and I was terrible at sport. I, I mean, I could've- Still ... I could, I could've been, I ... That's a I could've been a professional if it wasn't for injuries and a chronic lack of talent. Like, just those two things. Just- Just, just the lack of talent ... just those two. Um, but, I, I ... y- you somewhat need to use a negative perception to sort of fuel you a little bit.

Jacob: Yeah. So I, my opinion of jury, the jury I would cast in my head are full of bigots that are gonna take the side of the accuser, because let's face it, we do have a legal system, legal system instead of justice system, I'm big on saying- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm ... 

Jacob: legal system, um, that is already heavily weighted to the accused.

Jacob: So in my mind, I need to overcome 12 people that have that attitude. So that is going to fuel me, [00:21:00] that I have to change their mind, or I have to convince them of something. So- 

Sarah: And when you're saying that, are you taking that to mean, I need to collect the best evidence I can, or are you saying this is a- 

Jacob: Yeah, 

Sarah: take 

Jacob: nothing for granted 

Sarah: Well- 

Jacob: Yeah

Sarah: because y- see, you say that, and that is such a positive use of, uh, downstream decision-making almost. Yeah. It's like you're using it to fuel you- 

Jacob: Yes ... 

Sarah: to get the b- best evidence that you can, put forward the best case you can, when we know that what's more common is people thinking, "Well, there's no way this is gonna get up in front of a jury, I'm not even gonna pursue it," when that's not an officer's job.

Jacob: Yeah, so, I would say, and certainly with Victoria, our, and so worth making the distinction that the sexual offenses unit I worked in w- w- were with the state sexual crimes squad. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Jacob: Um, and whereas all regional areas in Victoria have sexual offenses and child [00:22:00] abuse investigation teams, the distinction between the two is that the local regional areas investigated known offenders.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: So whereas the group that I worked with investigated unknown offenders. So I, I'd, I'm, I'm careful not to make blanket statements that, um- cover off on socket attitudes. But the attitude that I sort of had imparted on me is, it's not for you to worry about- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: where it's going to get to. You put your best brief of evidence, and that will, that is a decision that will be made up the chain.

Jacob: And yes, we can put a note on the front of it that says, "I'm 100% in this." And that, the, I, I'm very cognizant of the fact that I was at the bottom of the food chain- ... in terms of, so how much... But I, I took a great deal of pride in ensuring that the evidence I put [00:23:00] forward had the best chance of proceeding. So it, it, there's not a heap of it, and I can't say that it wouldn't impact somes people, some people in terms of the effort they went to in their evidence.

Jacob: It definitely shouldn't. Like, it's just, just work it to the bone. Just get everything you can out of it. And, but they will reach a threshold where management meets with the, um, the prosecutors of, of the jurisdiction, and they will have to answer a lot of questions. D- um, is it in the public interest? With sexual offenses, you can pretty much guarantee it's in the public interest to pursue it.

Jacob: Um, is the complainant on board? Are they willing to proceed? I think there's a couple of others, but the, the big one that they're gonna come down to is, what is the prospect of a conviction? 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jacob: And I [00:24:00] don't under- And, and th- this is, this is your million-dollar question, and if you ask me on any given day whether I like or loathe the attitudes that go into that decision, I, I, I could have a different answer on a different day.

Jacob: 'Cause on one hand- L- let's, let's have a crack at it. But on the other hand, if you j- if, if the people who we're told have the most experience to make this decision say that there's a low prospect, we know what that courtroom experience is like- 

Sarah: Mm-hmm ... 

Jacob: for a survivor. So do we not try- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: and fail the victim because of that, or do we- 

Sarah: Try to spare the victim

Jacob: y- yeah. Or do we- The courtroom ... run at a brick wall that we're, we, we think we probably can't knock over, but we need to show the victim that we, that we care enough to try for them? Like, there's harm either way. 

Sarah: I wanna talk about intention versus harm- 

Jacob: Mm ... 

Sarah: because [00:25:00] it keeps coming up, that word- Yeah

Sarah: intention. And, uh, f- for me, so many, so many of the things that went wrong weren't intentional. 

Jacob: Yeah. 

Sarah: So many of the, um, decisions made by the detectives rotating in and out of my case w- weren't even, like, a lot of them were, were flippant and, um, off-the-cuff and, um, made without much thought, but of course made without malice.

Sarah: And so the problem for me, it wasn't intent, it was perspective. I had a perspective that they couldn't possibly have, because they weren't a victim sitting alone in a room that looks like a jail cell, that smells weird, mind you. Um, I remember starting to worry about the officers who had to work- ... in the station all day.

Sarah: And that's why conversations like this matter, because harm doesn't [00:26:00] require malice. 

Jacob: No, 

Sarah: yeah. It just requires systems that don't take lived experience- Yep ... into account. 

Jacob: Yep. 

Sarah: Um, uh, for me, before reporting, I used to think re-traumatization was just telling your story over and over, and for sure that sucks.

Sarah: I mean, that's an understatement. But what I learnt was that it was actually a lot more about the system taking away my agency- 

Jacob: Mm-hmm ... 

Sarah: just like it was taken during the crime, right at the time I was trying to reclaim it by reporting. And obviously reclaiming that looks different for everyone, but for me it was reporting in that moment.

Sarah: And that's, it just, like, clicked, and for me it's so obvious now, but I think for a lot of people, and perhaps a lot of officers, it isn't. It's the, the powerlessness. It's the replication- 

Jacob: Yeah ... 

Sarah: of the harm that was done. It's not just, "Oh, no, you've had to tell your story three times." It's those little things.

Sarah: It's a lack of communication, a lack of a choice about when you're reporting, what you're reporting, [00:27:00] who you're reporting to. It's decisions being made about you without you. Yeah. And I know that victims can't lead, um, the investigation, let alone the reporting process, but I found that the smallest things, things that you'd think actually, um- would kind of come naturally in, in any other interaction- 

Jacob: Yeah

Sarah: it w- w- were the things that gave me the most agency. Like a simple heads-up that today we're gonna talk about this part of your story and not that part, or would you prefer to be contacted by email or by phone? Um, this room or that room? Like, tiny things that seem so flippant now when we, when we say it.

Sarah: But for me, I was like, I, I feel like so much of this comes down to victims being seen as vulnerable, and you're taught, like, oh, this, this, this complainant is extra vulnerable and needs to be treated with care. And it makes people freeze up and it makes them awkward, and it's like common decency just goes out [00:28:00] the window.

Jacob: Yeah. 

Sarah: When, you know, if you're running late to your family barbecue, you would call whoever's hosting and say, "I'm running late." Whereas, you know, I would find myself booking appointments, waiting and waiting just for them to be canceled, when I could've been told- 

Jacob: Yeah ... 

Sarah: earlier. Like, really simple things. And I mean, that one is kind of a bad example of unintentional, because, yes, they forgot, but God, that was- How the hell did they forget?

Sarah: God, that sucks. But, um, y- you'd think the amount of people sort of involved in that detective's schedule could've given, given me a ring. But those other things, they're so small. They're not- Yeah ... like, police forget that their number comes from an unknown number. Yeah. And so I remember when the f- detective I had who, um, was the fifth detective, she got into the habit of texting me before she called.

Sarah: Love that. And my God, did it make a world of difference. Yeah. And I still, like, it actually gives me shivers how ridiculous it is that that was the thing that helped [00:29:00] me most, and I still have a fear of unknown numbers. But they're just, they're small things, and so it, it gets me thinking about, um, you know, officers, officers are victims of this system too.

Sarah: You guys are cogs in a big wheel that you are not, um, steering, and you are overworked and under-trained and at capacity, and working in awful conditions with awful, uh, crimes. And things like compassion fatigue and burnout and, um, I don't know, whatever else. Like, whatever else anyone else would experience in a job.

Sarah: Hierarchical pressures. Um, those things would impact you a lot more than they might impact someone else. Yeah, so I, I don't know. I don't really have a, a question. I'm just- 

Jacob: No, no, thank j- uh, thank you for sharing that. I think you touched on so many [00:30:00] important issues, and I have a level of lived experience with the same themes- Mm

Jacob: that I can speak to in terms of the response. So for people watching along at home, I'm ill health retired from Victoria Police- Mm-hmm ... due to a mental health injury sustained from the work that I did. And- 

Sarah: I also just want to flag that it's such a big deal that you share that. You know- Oh ... like, we don't take it lightly.

Sarah: I think it's so important that people know that vicarious trauma and, um, i- internal pressures and the horrors that victims experience, you know, are experienced by the good guys, too. Um- 

Jacob: Well, you, you guys are the, are the good guys. Let's, let's don't undersell it. Um- 

Sarah: Well, I think, I don't mean to say that the system- No, I know

Sarah: is full of good guys, but, you know, just like- Yeah ... every other system, like, it's full of good eggs. It's not e- everyone's fault, and it's not always intentional. It just, you reach a point where it kind of doesn't matter when this amount of harm is being done this consistently to this many people across the [00:31:00] country.

Sarah: So it's a, I don't know, it's something, like, where we have to hold, um, two truths together at once. 100, 100%. And then where do you go from 

Jacob: there? Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And there's, there's, and I don't know if that's show notes but, but we'll, we'll ta- question without notes. But there's a, a, a great friend and a former colleague of mine, Jess Murray, she wrote a dissertation on moral injury- Mm

Jacob: as, and compassion fatigue comes into that. And it, it's a, it's a fascinating read. It's a detailed read. I, I actually spoke to Jess before I came in and I was just like, "Hey, do you have any-" 

Sarah: Get a little pep talk. 

Jacob: Well, j- just asking, like, because a- I'm so, I'm so mindful of not getting into my own echo chamber- 

Sarah: Yeah

Jacob: with things. I want to open it up. Like, everything I've done, and we'll probably speak about this stuff later, I, I endeavor to do it with co-design and- Mm ... and making sure that I'm not just the world according to Jacob, um, and that- ... other [00:32:00] people's inputs are very much shaping what I do. But in terms of, uh, I, I would say if, if you had to describe my mental health injury that I came out with, it's probably akin to moral injury, feeling failed by a system, by management on things.

Jacob: And compassion fatigue does form part of that. Um, but one of the things about it is I think it's often, um- Oversimplified 

Sarah: Mm 

Jacob: as, and taken very, and oversimplified in a very natural way, taking in its very literal definitions of the two words. Fatigued at being compassionate with people, which is not so much what it is.

Jacob: It's, it's about being compassionate all the time and feeling like you're not getting- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: the support to be that compassionate. 

Sarah: It's feeling like you're the only one sometimes, or feeling isolated. And I think a big part of it as well is [00:33:00] being let down by a system that you, you know, you idolized growing up.

Sarah: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or you thought it would be one way. Um, and then, um, when it's not, it, that betrayal goes so much deeper. 

Jacob: Yeah, definitely. And that, and that's something that I'm super, like I almost- 'Cause you try and compare yourself to people, like in, in policing. This very much isn't the theme, so we can cut as much of this as-

Jacob: as necessary. But- 

Sarah: Go 

Jacob: on ... like I, I very much look at m- my career and think, "Well, how do I compare it to other people's career?" Like, you go, "I probably haven't seen nearly as much as what other people have," but then you play the greatest hits in your head, and it's like, "Oh, I've seen, I've seen some stuff." But I almost think I'm weird in the sense that that stuff I probably handled really well.

Jacob: Mm. I was probably had really healthy responses to how I dealt with the aftermath of that. So... But I came in with the knowledge that that trauma might [00:34:00] impact me down the line. Mm. So when, and this is where the moral injury comes into it, where I felt the greatest harm that happened to me was being failed by the systems rather than all the terrible things I saw- 

Sarah: Mm

Jacob: when the systems fail, and that's what's letting people down. Like, when I first went off sick originally, I, I tried to return, and d- I promise we're coming back to a point here in terms of compassion fatigue. No, this is- Um, when- ... significant ... when I first came back via my return to work, I came to a, it, to a family violence unit.

Jacob: So I went from the, the role I had before going off on sick was at the sexual crime squad. I came back at a domestic, um- What? I know. It, it's all- Who 

Sarah: thought that was good? 

Jacob: But this is, but this is, this is the thing, and this was, this was what was big for me. Like, I, I, I wasn't, I wasn't actually, and this sounds hor- I was obviously bothered by every- Mm

Jacob: traumatic experience. But I actually handled it well. There were just, it was an environment I needed to get out of. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: But it took so long [00:35:00] to facilitate my return to work. It was about nine months. Mm. So that was, that was nine months of going downhill, wallowing. Why am I at work? I know I can help, I know I can help.

Jacob: 'Cause I have this distorted justice lens where I can't switch off if I'm not doing everything I can, which probably bodes everything. Moral 

Sarah: scrupulosity OCD. 

Jacob: Ooh, I'm gonna write 

Sarah: that. That came up recently on, uh, TikTok- ... uh, for me. That's 

Jacob: a great source. Are you 

Sarah: It, it actually is. Yeah. I feel like it's like a Wikipedia.

Sarah: Yeah. It's like a good go-to for, for starters, and then you gotta fact check- 

Jacob: Yes ... what you find. Yes, yes. Um- It's a great source if you fact 

Sarah: check afterwards ... but it came up for me. 

Jacob: Let's, let's- Yeah ... 

Sarah: look at it later. We'll, we'll talk about it. 

Jacob: But bec- in that time, I lost, my mental health got a lot worse.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: So it wasn't a great fit because of the passing of time. But when I went back in, the thing with- family violence detectives is you're dealing with the most high risk- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: people at all times. And I was on a reduced hours return to work. Yeah. And I had a caseload, and I was doing three [00:36:00] seven-hour days on my return to work to- Yeah

Jacob: ease back into it. But I still had a caseload. 

Sarah: Yeah. And you're- Which was still- ... obviously wanting to go above and beyond. 

Jacob: Yeah. It was still my caseload for the four days I wasn't at work, but I couldn't go to sleep at night. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: Because what if she dies? Yeah, uh, that I could not, and I think this is where, like, it was compassion fatigue, because I got so much support in that workplace of, "Jacob, you're doing a great job.

Jacob: Like, don't for a second think you're not doing enough." But you can never be doing it- You can never do enough ... like, you could never be doing enough. Yeah. Unless you have then- 

Sarah: Well, with every minute, the stakes here are so high. The stakes are s- Every minute you're not doing something, some, like a woman is being harmed, a child is being put in harm's way or being harmed, like, the risk is literally death.

Sarah: It's life or death. 

Jacob: Yeah. 

Sarah: And that's not... And then as you're saying, it's interesting, because this is something that comes up for me a lot, uh, uh, just in terms of working in reform and advocacy. It's not the [00:37:00] content. It's not the content. Mm. It's actually the system. Yeah. The systems at play. Yeah. And, and they're replicating these abusive dynamics, and you're up against all odds, and you're hitting your head against a brick wall, and you're just getting a headache because the wall's not gonna move.

Sarah: It's, it's the shock of how inefficient or how failing or how dysfunctional the systems are. It's not what you're trying to work on or what you're trying to change. It, it's so interesting- Mm ... because people constantly, they think it's the work. Yeah. And it's like with you, it's like they say compassion fatigue, and they go, "Yeah, it must be really hard to take statements about such horrible happenings."

Sarah: Yeah. And it's like, well, actually, you were really good at that part. 

Jacob: Yeah. 

Sarah: You were really good at making victims feel heard and supported. It was that you were up against a system that wasn't working the way- And you're 

Jacob: playing the scenario out in your head that you know that this doesn't end in something meaningful.

Jacob: Like- Mm. So something that annoys, annoys me is that, uh, they've just brought in the adult, adult crime, [00:38:00] adult time. Yeah. They, they've had it in Queensland. They're doing it in Victoria. It's just how it rhymes. I guess that's the most important thing. But- ... the thing is, if we look at, like, let's really apply that, and let's think about when was the last time an adult got adult time for an adult crime.

Sarah: Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

Jacob: We're not even applying it to them. Let's not think for a second that we're going to apply it to a young person- Mm ... or that heavy-handed res- this is a whole different sort of tangent, but in terms of, like, our justice response, and, like, this is- 

Sarah: It's, it's not even thinly veiled anymore.

Sarah: No. It's just blanket, like, racism. Yeah. Like, it's just let's really obviously do this, and we're not even pretending that w- we're changing things under the guise of something else anymore. It's just so obvious and upfront and harmful for- Well- ... marginalized communities. 

Jacob: It's, it's act- it's actually really funny that you say, and I just, it just occurred to me then.

Jacob: I've, um, I'm... Like, I have this old notebook, and it's [00:39:00] from when I spent time as a youth resource officer. It, it was just the, the notebook that I could bring up, but I promise there's a point to this. But something we, um, I worked at, in Mildura, so on the border of Victoria and New South Wales, about as far as you can go in Victoria before actually leaving it.

Jacob: Um, and one of our big things was- If we gave somebody, if there was a young person that we dealt with and we gave them a caution instead of giving them a charge and putting them through it, the caution gave us 12 months to meaningfully engage- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: with them and steer them and, and an excuse to call them- 

Sarah: Mm

Jacob: every so often and be engaged with them. We got such great outcomes for that. And, you know, we, our recidivism rates came down greatly because we had this approach of redirecting, rather than just putting it back into a system that's gonna spit them out- 

Sarah: Yeah, 

Jacob: worse ... and give them exposure. Like we talk about- [00:40:00] And, uh, I, I think this is nationwide.

Jacob: Like, the media headlines are saying a lot about youth crime and things like that, but what are we doing to acknowledge that these kids probably aren't coming from very stable backgrounds? How are we engaging them to show them there's a life other than the one that they're in right now? So I'm all for if they, if they are charged, let's make part of their sentencing conditions not that they go pick up pieces of paper.

Jacob: Let's, let's have an interview with them before they go to court and find out, "All right, what are your interests?" 

Sarah: Yeah. "

Jacob: How can we redirect you into something else?" And, you know, all of, uh, all of this isn't entirely unrelated to what we're talking about, because it is just a fact that people who have been incarcerated- 

Sarah: Mm

Jacob: are over-represented in as being perpetrators of gendered violence. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jacob: So if we can do [00:41:00] a better job of meaningfully engaging our young people, and that's, that's broader than just the criminal system. That's, goes into our education of how we speak to boys. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: Um- 

Sarah: What we expect from them. 

Jacob: Yeah, what we, what we expect from them, and, you know- 

Sarah: What we hope for them, I think.

Sarah: I love how you've said not... 'Cause I thought you were gonna say we should have, you know, mandated men's behavioral change- Mm ... sort of intervention programs, and it's like I'm totally for that. But even that, you can lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink. Yeah. And I love that idea of sitting down, what are your interests?

Sarah: How can we actually get through to you and make this- Yeah ... meaningful for you? 

Jacob: Yeah, it can't, it can't just be, it can't just be the punishment. Obviously, obviously... And I'm not, I'm not an expert in the deterrent space, but I- Mm ... I think it's, I think recidivism rates sort of speak for themselves. Yeah. That...

Jacob: And I, I understand there needs to be a level of punitive measures, but let's, let's explore [00:42:00] that on a deeper level when we've really established that there is no other choice. 

Sarah: Yeah. Okay, we've talked a lot about what's wrong with the existing system. What would a better first door into the legal system look like?

Sarah: Let's talk about Safe Disclose. 

Jacob: Yeah, so yeah, thank you for the opportunity to speak about this. It's really, um, important to me on a personal journey as much as anything. Like, one of the things I lost, um, when my health went downhill and leaving, I still felt like I had unfinished business. So- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: how do you lose your ability to help in that conventional way that you learned to as a police officer and still have something?

Jacob: And I found Safe Disclose. And I, I think the way you've structured this conversation is really important, because to meaningfully engage with a solution, you need to know the true extent of the problem, and I, I think it is a necessary part- of it is to we can't pretend this isn't an [00:43:00] issue. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Jacob: And so I, I think the, the big takeaways are that we acknowledge that system level change is required, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing, because we certainly think that system level change is really achievable.

Sarah: Mm. 

Jacob: And it should be said that traditional pathways, there is gonna be people that want to have that in real life tangible experience of walking in, because that's how they're gonna be more comfortable with it. But we can't understate what we went through with COVID as a society and people becoming a more digitally connected space.

Jacob: Um, and we need to embrace that more significantly. 

Sarah: Nor can we underestimate the, the rising rates of anonymous reporting or the growing research interest in alternative reporting mechanisms, so- 

Jacob: Yes ... and 

Sarah: it's all, all part 

Jacob: of it. Yeah. Uh, a hun- 100%. And where, so this isn't a new idea. While Safe [00:44:00] was founded in 2023, I, I pitched the first rough outline of it in 2020 when I was on my specialist...

Jacob: I, I still have the piece of paper which I have a scribbled version of what the flow would look like. Uh- 

Sarah: Frame it. 

Jacob: So, so we, we were sitting in class, and we had an external speaker who was coming in and talking about the realities of under-reporting of sexual violence. Mm. And at the time it was 87% under-reporting.

Jacob: The reports tell us now that it's gone up. Oh. 92% of, of sexual assaults for women and girls over the age of 15 won't... And this is, this is the most jo- almost the most jarring part of this statement, won't report their most recent- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: assault. Like, that's horrifying. Um, but w- when I was in class that day, so using 87% at [00:45:00] the time, the number itself is obviously confronting, but there was this disposition of, "But we'll do the best with the 13% that we do get."

Jacob: And I, I zoned out into, "That's not good enough." And I, and while I'm empathetic to people being tangible and you can only take on the fights you can take, and at the end of the day they're dealing with, they weren't dealing with a room of innovators. They were talking to a room of police officers and telling them, "It's your responsibility to do the best."

Jacob: So I, I understood it, but for me it didn't sit well as a probably a creative at, at my core. So- I, I went away and I created a flowchart, which is essentially an online chat portal which as soon as you enter into it, you're not required to log in with any identifying features. You're given a unique reference [00:46:00] number, and you can create a password to, to link with that unique reference number.

Jacob: You are defined by that unique reference number until you choose you don't want to be anymore. That's all anybody knows about you. The chat portal pairs you with a specialist. So we've talked about the problems and how it's three steps removed until you finally speak with the specialist. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jacob: So these portals would be staffed by those specialists, ensuring that the first conversation you have is ensuring that you only have to make one disclosure, and it is in your words.

Jacob: It's not abridged language where somebody's shorthand writing your notes. It's your words coming across, and accessibility needs to be built into that. The ability to pair with an interpreter service, the ability to have voice-to-text functionality, all of those things built into the solution, and also just the ability to invite a trauma support worker into the conversation if it's [00:47:00] easily established that a criminal exploration isn't what this person needs right now.

Jacob: They need help. Mm. Let's invite this person into the chat portal. All of this completely anonymously, and then what it's designed to do is to have a guided disclosure conversation where you're asking the questions that need to be asked, and it's built on... Like, I briefly spoke to you about it outside, and we were talking about, do we need to walk, work through a list of questions in here?

Jacob: It's gotta be- The, it's got to come from the person making the disclosure. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jacob: So we sort of start with an open question, "Tell me in as much detail as you can everything you want to talk- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: today." And it is only the specialist that should ever ask that question. Mm-hmm. I want to make that very clear.

Jacob: And then you are going to say as much or as little that you're comfortable with in that moment, and then it's the specialist's responsibility to, "Okay, what do we need to pick apart more?" So that conversation is one, is one part of [00:48:00] it. But then at the end of it, while still anonymous, we get to the most important step, which is what we would call the options talk.

Jacob: And the options talk is essentially starting by thanking the survivor for the incredible courage that it took to put themselves forward and go through that experience of sharing. But then to say, "Based on what you have told me, I can identify that you've described an offense. This is what a realistic expectation- Mm

Jacob: of what would come next looks like." And only after hearing that would they say, "Now, based on everything I've told you, is this a process you would like to continue with?" That can go one of three ways: yes, no, I need more time to think about it. If it's yes, then we'll exchange details and we'll take [00:49:00] this offline and we'll figure out how to, and, you know, we'll go export this conversation, we'll sign it, and that can be your statement.

Jacob: We don't need to do all of that long form answer again. No, it's like, "Okay, well, you've still got, you've got access to these support services. If you want me to bring the tr- support worker back into the conversation so you can speak to them at, at length, please do that," or, "I need more time to think about it," which is still the same answer as no, in the sense that you walk away with your unique reference number, and you can come back to that at any point in the future where you've had more time to process it.

Jacob: Because in that moment, it might just be the getting it off your chest that's the most important thing. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jacob: You might not have even forecast the prospect of pursuing it, but you knew that this anonymity safeguard that I've got is going to allow me to unburden myself. So What's so important is the agency sense that- Mm-hmm

Jacob: you can come back [00:50:00] to that conversation using your unique reference number and the password you've assigned to it to rejoin. It may not necessarily... It, it's almost, it's highly unlikely, you know, likely that it would be the same person at the other end of it, depending on, 'cause you can do this at any time, but they would have full access to the log.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jacob: They'd be able to familiarize themself with what the options talk was, and lead the person to, "Do you wish to proceed?" And then on the basis of that, then hand it over to the most appropriate, whether if you've nominated, like I said before, if you've nominated a, a known offender, we'll pair you with someone in your region.

Jacob: Mm-hmm. If you've reported an unknown assailant, it would go to the sexual crimes squad. Sorry, this is speaking from Vic- in- 

Sarah: Yeah, of course ... 

Jacob: with Victoria as the example. The, the issues, and we- we've spoken about this offline before, about, um, there are some states who say that they have [00:51:00] anonymous reporting mechanisms.

Jacob: A lot of them are... Well, one in particular does- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Jacob: better than the others, but a lot of them are- Shout 

Sarah: out WA. 

Jacob: Shout out WA, safe to, safe to say. Um, but the other states are largely forms, and it's for... And the first thing you're confronted with on the anonymous reporting form is, "Who are you?" 

Sarah: It's so silly, 

Jacob: isn't it?

Jacob: Tell me who you are. So- And while you can continue without filling that in- 

Sarah: Yeah, you might not know that. It's pretty confronting to, you know, think you're anonymously reporting and the first question you're asked is, "What's your 

Jacob: name?" Yeah, 'cause you might t- you might turn away completely before you get to the bottom of- Yeah

Jacob: the page that says, "Oh, by the way, if you wanna remain anonymous, you can continue on." But if you d- even if you do make it that far and continue on, that means whatever you say on the next page is just going into the ether. Yeah. That's just for information. 

Sarah: I think as well... Well, what I love about Safe Disclose are, like, the, the clear responses to, like, the big barriers.

Sarah: Yeah. It's like first [00:52:00] thing, reduction of touchpoints. 

Jacob: Yep. 

Sarah: Second thing, best practice evidence collection, like not getting someone to break their narrative into ticker boxes or, um, asking them closed questions- Yep ... that might warp memory, um, because they're trying to meet, you know, the needs of a form. And then- The big thing with, uh, with current alternative or anonymous reporting mechanisms is that you've got to repeat that process again if you- 

Jacob: Yeah

Sarah: if you want to go in and make a formal statement in person. 

Jacob: Yep. 

Sarah: And so this would be, um, u- used in, in place of a statement, which is also significant, not just to avoid the retelling, but it's, it's about having multiple disclosures and the discrepancies between both, and then defense getting ahold of them and, you know, using this- Yes

Sarah: to discredit you. 

Jacob: Yeah, 

Sarah: that's... Yeah. Um, and then also, the, the, the last big thing for me is that, like, [00:53:00] support and triage and options and agency are centric. Like, e- it's about legal literacy, right? We know you and I have talked at length about how victims are just blindsided by- 

Jacob: Mm ... 

Sarah: procedure, and no one can give them clear information about what to expect, and this is like, "Let me kindly tell you what to expect."

Sarah: Yeah. "But honestly, you know, kindly but honestly tell you what to expect, and you can decide for you if it's the right thing." Yes. So you're not going in blind thinking that you're doing something you're not. You're not wondering what if- Yeah ... and you've got that what if looming over you for, you know, God knows how long.

Sarah: Um, and at the end of the day, support is, you know, forefront. Whereas it's taken up until, I think, a year or two ago for New South Wales, for example, to, to have support of- options listed at the start, not the end- Yes ... of the form once. Yeah. And it's a really traumatizing form. Yeah. It's not quick and easy.

Sarah: No. It's not just like a little, a little thing you can open up a tab and do 

Jacob: it. And it's closed, it's, it's forced, it's forced questions. Yeah. Like we, we spoke about one day. So many 

of 

Sarah: them are. 

Jacob: A- [00:54:00] and, you know, I guess this sort of pivots into what, um, what one of the big challenges we've had in trying to onboard Safe Discuss.

Jacob: So we, we went and we built out this, this portal that could allow these conversations to happen. But I spoke about resourcing challenges- Mm ... in policing nationwide, where... And it, it's, it's not untrue, this, this reality that we're offering a solution at a time of low resources. You're, I'm asking them to dedicate more resources to it.

Jacob: So, you know, we, we now explore, and ex- exploration being the key, the key phrase here, if there is an ethical way to do this, to build from the ground up, not borrow anybody else's, um, systems. Is there a way of training an AI model to do this? 

Sarah: Mm. 

Jacob: To have this conversation. And the, and it would have to reach certain thresholds for me to ever take this from being a [00:55:00] concept behind closed doors to...

Jacob: And I would need far greater experts than me to sign off on whether it is an ethical approach. But if you could train an AI model that was centered in empathy and could have a- disclosure conversation with the necessary structure, which still follows the open question at the start, "Tell me everything you can," and then follows signposting principles, which is, uh, signposting is that sort of if you go through all the information that I've just said to you as a reporting person, picking out the headlines that I need more information on.

Jacob: So not asking, not, not having rigid, a rigid set of questions. Did, you know, and, you know we're talking about, we're talking about sexual violence. I, I feel like we're far enough into it. Not, did he touch you? No leading, no leading questions. It's just, okay, you spoke. It might be, you spoke about [00:56:00] him touching you.

Jacob: Can you tell me more- Can you tell me more about that? Can you tell me more about that? That is such an important distinction, because if you say, "Did he touch you?" And you say, "Yes," there's a defense thing. You, you- Yeah ... you probed that. You asked, you asked that question. She might not have- 

Sarah: It's just crazy how behind, like, interview protocol is from best practice.

Sarah: Like, I find it really, uh, bizarre more than anything. 

Jacob: Yeah. So, so, like, the, the specialists, a- again, in Victoria, like, they're, they're very much in line with best practice. But that first, that first set of notes- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Jacob: that's the problem. So if we c- if we can find a way that we could do an ethical build of this- Yeah

Jacob: and we, and it still has the options talk at the end, and then it, instead of, instead of if a person does elect to pass on their details, that it becomes a portal and that chat is extracted and goes to the appropriate person, and they can... So there is a... Like, I've had down moments where I'm, like, [00:57:00] angry at the world that this is such a achievable solution.

Jacob: It should be in place. Yeah. It should be the norm. And again, shout out to WA. They're doing a, they're doing as close to a version of, of this as what, um, we can, which I think acknowledges the, e- essentially puts... And you've probably dived deeper into Safe2Say than what I have, but e- essentially I would say the key point of difference is theirs is somewhat of like an email inbox.

Jacob: It's not necessarily a live- 

Sarah: Mm ... 

Jacob: back and forth, which... And, and that might be the perfect solution for somebody that needs, "I can only do bite size- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Jacob: pieces." But there might be somebody that you've only got one shot at- 

Sarah: Yeah ... 

Jacob: talking 

Sarah: to them. Well, and, and they can't have a record of, of it in their inbox, for example.

Jacob: Y- yeah. So it- Yeah ... re- it's, it's tough, but they're try- but they're trying. And that's- 

Sarah: They're trying, and that's the main thing 

Jacob: And that, and that, that is, like, when I've had meaningful conversa- And I won't, I thought about whether I should name them. I, I, I won't [00:58:00] just because in case they're listening to this, maybe they'll see this as a, a bit of good grace and they'll, they'll come back to us and say they want to onboard.

Jacob: But you know, I, I had a meeting with a state-based jurisdiction, and their response was, "At the end of the day, after I did all of this, at the end of the day, they can call or they can come in. If they want to make a report, they've got options." And I said- 

Sarah: I.e., we're happy with the low reporting rate and the high clearance 

Jacob: rate

Jacob: that is exactly what I said. With all due respect, 92% of people disagree with you. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Jacob: And they just didn't, they just did not care. And I went through a politician to get that meeting. They were ignoring, they were ignoring me, so I went to a politician who, who partnered with me with them. So but one of the big things I say to anyone that will listen is that I c- all of this is in theory.

Jacob: I cannot promise you that this stuff will work. Based on all of the research that we put into it, identifying what barriers exist, we [00:59:00] believe that it answers the barriers, and it will help people overcome the barriers. But I guarantee the community will be far happier to see w- that we've tried and failed than to just bury our head in the sands, because we cannot have another politician stand up and say that we need change when they're not willing to back it.

Sarah: What's something every complainant should know before walking into a station, and what's something you wish every officer understood? 

Jacob: Again, I knew- Just 

Sarah: casually ... 

Jacob: again, I knew th- I knew these questions were coming. You gave me, you gave me the heads-up. You're not dropping this on me. And it's, I'm trying to think about what the most important thing to say.

Jacob: I would say, and we're looking at what it is currently. So the, the system, based on what it currently is not a best case scenario if all of these solutions are put in place. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. 

Jacob: As we currently sit right now, I would, I would say to a complainant walking in, "Be very aware of what your goals are from having reported.

Jacob: Can [01:00:00] you detach an expectation of justice from that motivation?" Because that's probably the last thing that can be guaranteed, is that you'll reach that justice. But I would absolutely implore that they know that police do have the ability to make really powerful referrals to really good organizations.

Jacob: So even if you're not keen to pursue, if you want to speak to police, they can help you engage with people that can help you through it. It's not, that's not the solution that's up in lights for people when they think about reporting, but there are other metrics to it, but prioritize your welfare. 

Sarah: Mm. 

Jacob: That is the most important thing.

Jacob: You are the most important person in this process. You are not inconveniencing anyone by looking out for yourself. You [01:01:00] do have agency in what happens. It's... I, I don't know a movie from more modern times for the Gen Alphas and Gen Zs other than Speed, but you can get off the bus at, at any time. For police- I would just say that you might be having a bad day- Mm

Jacob: and there's, there's plenty of bad days, but we can be pretty confident that if somebody's coming in to tell us this story, they've had a worse day. So we're the least impor- so from saying that they're complaining, you are the most important person in this story. We're the, we're the least important, and that's, and that's not to diminish, like we've already spoken at length about the burden of carrying the weight of this.

Jacob: But just... And you have every right to feel all of your feelings about how the day has been heavy for you, [01:02:00] but you can't make the person standing in front of you feel that they are an inconvenience. They need to be centered in everything that you do. 

Sarah: I'm so happy you came in to speak to me today. I really hope listeners get something out of it.

Sarah: I'm sure they will. I know that I could gossip, uh, with you until the cows come home about the nuances of police reform and legal reform. And yeah, I just wanna say again that I really don't take it lightly that you're here sharing your actual, um, experiences, you know, and your, your expertise. It's so valuable, and I think it represents something a lot bigger than you a- as well.

Sarah: Um, but yeah, I'm really, I'm really appreciative, and I'm sure we'll be having more chats soon. And, uh, Jacob and I will go debrief now, uh, I reckon. 

Jacob: Yeah. No, it sounds good. Sounds good. And y- you're exa- [01:03:00] you're exactly right. There are people operating within imperfect systems, and, you know, I still... I'm not in there at the moment, but I see you.

Jacob: I know you, you're trying your best. I hope you're trying your best. But it's on change makers, power brokers to acknowledge that this is a problem and fix it for the people trying to navigate an imperfect world. 

Sarah: If you've listened this far, you already know something most Australians don't. Victim survivors are the only people in sexual offence trials without their own lawyer. That doesn't have to stay true, but justice systems don't change because they quietly evolve. They change because people understand them and demand better. Go to withyouwecan.org to be a part of that demand. This has been What No One Told Us.